Eisenhower approach to Dalits
U.S President viewed black segregation and discrimination not just a moral wrong but primarily as national scurity. Having a restive resentful minority comprising more than 14% of the population is a boon for foreign saboteurs. Therefore he supported civil rights movements in its infancy and enforced integration at gunpoint.
India has a Dalit population nearing 200 million which is a population larger than most countries in the world. This communiity is absent in education,business, entertainment, sports, media and with occasional exceptions- politics. Buddhism , a particularly virulent and hostile form similar to Sinhala Buddhism, is snapping up most of them, while many others flock to Christianity or Islam. The remaining are either atheist or retreat to their customs and practices of worship which orthodox Hindus frown at. Many Dalits increasingly look to Western culture and even prefer to wait wear Western clothing at their marriages as traditonal kurta dhoti ,sherwani remind them of their oppresors.
If we think that these peoples can never form a nation because they are not concentrated in one particular region or they lack abilities and resources well thats what they said about Muslims around the 1910s. We all know the result. Even if they dont seceede, they are a potential fifth column. Have people already forgot about the Battle of Koregaon or prefer to learn the wrong lessons- "Why those Mahars were plain anti national to side with the British!!!! Why do they hate Bharatmata so much??" . The same Mahars were instrumental in thrashing the Mughals under Shivaji and his successors. Perhaps give some consideration to what changed later under the Peshwas. During Panipat the commanders became so casteist that they would mock Mahars and other proto Dalits that were only fit to wash their leaders underwear. This and other institutionalized abuse and humilations led them to an oppressor who was consideraably less oppressive.
The same happend with the most of the lower strata of Tibetan society. Contrary to what Hollywood propaganda circa 90s (not today as its beholden to Chinese market) the Dalai Lama wasnt some noble other worldly being. He ran a slave state demanding absolute fealty and a right to upto 80% of their produce. Those who were unable to comply were punished. Meanwhile sexual abuse of young monks was rampant in monasteries similar to the Catholic situation years later. The descendants of these people have a shrine dedicated to Chairman Mao.
Hindus are a very deluded people who can only think in binary terms- against or for Bharatmata. They have no interest in figuring out why people make the decisions they do as they already decided they were desh drohis for doing . Even as they there was no desh during the time of these desh drohis such as Ambhi and Jaichand. These individuals were simply doing what was in their self interest just as Shivaji was serving the Bijapur sultanate and later considered being a vassal of Aurangzeb. The latters extreme policies pushed him in the direction he went. The ultimate diety that Hindus worship is Bharatmata right now. All others such as Shiva, vishnu, Durga and Saraswati have stepped aside and hence so has a sense of discrimination, common sense, clarity, objectivity and knowledge,
The Dalit situation is a ticking time time bomb. Hindu approach is either hide their heads in the hand or throw rocks at this bomb.
"Having a restive resentful minority comprising more than 14% of the population is a boon for foreign saboteurs." ---- The situation with india is a bit more complex as we don't have a dalit(black) vs non-dalit(white) binary here. There is inter-group discrimination and intra-group discrimination(even among SC jaatis) both here. I am not sure if blacks in USA have a strict law like SC/ST preventation of atrocities act for their protection.
ReplyDelete"enforced integration at gunpoint." ---- What does integration mean in indian context ? Inter-caste marriages ? The government already has a plan where they give 2.5 lakhs Rs to a married couple where one of the partners is from a SC/ST jaati.
How will you integrate rural india ? Mind you, in rural india, people from the same jaati like to live nearby ,so it's not just dalit vs non-dalit issue here. This is why we have often have villages full of only a single jaati like brahmins, rajputs, yadavs, jats, kurmis etc.
"Many Dalits increasingly look to Western culture and even prefer to wait wear Western clothing at their marriages as traditonal kurta dhoti ,sherwani remind them of their oppresors" ---- Good observation however, as of now, this is limited to urban areas. This will eventually catch on to rural areas with greater penetration of internet and english language.
"If we think that these peoples can never form a nation because they are not concentrated in one particular region or they lack abilities and resources well thats what they said about Muslims around the 1910s " ---- To become a nation, a group should have a sense of common identity (Muslims did have a common identity, Scheduled castes, on the other hand, is a constitutional creation ) , this is being provided to a heterogeneous group of castes who are being brought under 'dalit' umbrella.
Even you are doing it . I believe that's the long term plan anyways.
Hell, this word is still unknown is the rustic areas of cow-belt.
"This communiity is absent in education,business, entertainment, sports, media and with occasional exceptions- politics" --- Most castes(or categories) are under-represented in media(north indian media is full of Brahmins) , entertainment(bollywood is filled with khatris, sindhis, pathans and a few brahmins. It's a highly nepotistic place) and business(mostly banias/jains, khatris, chettiars and vaishya-like jaatis). It's not just the "dalits" who are under-represented here. With that being said, there are quite a bit of "bahujan"(Bahujan = SC+ST+OBC) media channels on YouTube and some of them even have print versions. National Dastak is one of them which is quite famous. Imo, it's ultimately a matter of demand, if the demand increases, these guys can scale-up. Funding won't be an issue here as there are plenty of orgs who would be willing to fund them.
Oppression of SCs and other weaker castes is an issue but indian society is not divided into dalit and non-dalit lol. Aren't you thinking in the same binary terms that you are accusing the hindus of ?
"Buddhism , a particularly virulent and hostile form similar to Sinhala Buddhism, is snapping up most of them, while many others flock to Christianity or Islam. " ---- I don't think they are flocking to sinhala buddhism , they are flocking to navyana buddhism(Dr Ambedkar's buddhism). Anyways, good for them.
You are talking semantics and missing my point.whatever you wish to call them, their situation is pitiful. When I say education, I dont mean having access to schooling but reaching positions in universities and research institutions and so on.
DeleteYes there is under representation due to nepotism of those communities you mention but you really people like say Dalits have the same chance of breaking in the industry compared to say Yadavs ? And keep in mind many communities actually stay away from film industry due to iits sordid reputation.
At one point Rekha, Sri Devi, Jaya prada among other Telugu actresses were famous across various industries however they were involved in various scandals such as wrecking marriages etc. Hence nowadays there is hardly any famous telugu actress, even Telugu industry prefers to get actresses from the north as no Telugu family encourages it.
I dont think Dalits have those restrictions.
When i said Sinhala Buddhism , I meant Dalit Buddhism is very political and geared towards finding an enemy. IMO it is NOT good for them, they would be better off as Christians.
"you really people like say Dalits have the same chance of breaking in the industry compared to say Yadavs ?" ----
DeleteGenerally no but it depends upon the state and the jaati. Imo, Navyaba-bauddha Mahars in maharashtra would have better chances of breaking in the business industry compared to the yadavs of a backward, poor state like Bihar.
As far as business is concerned,apart from government help, there are now institutions like dalit chamber of commerce(DCCI) which is a private venture started by Milind Kamble (iirc, he is some big businessman from maharashtra who comes from some SC jaati) and other SC entrepreneurs to promote enterprenuership among SC groups. This is actually a good thing that private ventures started by SCs have started coming up.
"Hence nowadays there is hardly any famous telugu actress, even Telugu industry prefers to get actresses from the north as no Telugu family encourages it." ---- I always thought it's because of the fair skin and facial features that the film industries of the south do it.
"reaching positions in universities and research institutions and so on." ---- Dude, what's the solution to it then ? I believe government colleges have now begun giving reservations in assistant professors post.
"When i said Sinhala Buddhism , I meant Dalit Buddhism is very political and geared towards finding an enemy. " ---- read this , a piece by Abhinav Prakash(he is someone you can call as a hindutwavadi SC, he is an assistant professor at JNU).
https://m.hindustantimes.com/analysis/the-twin-crisis-of-dalit-politics-and-dalit-discourse/story-zQBDM8I7QovbHCiiN5LfSP.html
"---- I always thought it's because of the fair skin and facial features that the film industries of the south do it."
DeleteThats part of it however the reason I mentioned is the main one. Anyway some like Kaajal Agarwal are not that fair skinned and acutally dont look that different from a south indian. Anushka Shetty is probably the top rated actress in Telugu industry. She is not really fair skinned. There were other actresses that North Indians are unfamiliar such as Roja, Rambha, Meena who are not really that fair but these were all Telugu and top stars in the industry.
Fair skin in AP is not that common but it can be found but the reason as I mentioned is those stupid women who went around marrying other womens husbands and of course the casting couch infamy.
"Anyway some like Kaajal Agarwal are not that fair skinned and acutally dont look that different from a south indian." ---- True, she doesn'f look that different from a south indian.
Delete"Fair skin in AP is not that common but it can be found" --- let me guess, higher frequency in brahmins and ashraf muslims ;).
"Fair skin in AP is not that common but it can be found" --- let me guess, higher frequency in brahmins and ashraf muslims ;)."
DeleteYou find it Reddys as well. To a lesser extant Kammas. Sometimes Gouds. Many SC/STs can have blue and green eyes which are absent in higher castes apart from Brahmins. These may be due to a local mutation or Melanesian admixture.
Re Ashraf Muslims- Hindutvadis often mocks SC/ST and other converts to Islam as they suddenly discover an ancestor from Uzbekistan, Yemen or Iran. However a great bulk of Hyd Muslims actually did migrate from abroad. Its stamped in their faces. They would not look out of place in Baghdad, Teheran or Aden.
"Sometimes Gouds" ---- Are Gouds of Andhra same as Gowdas/vokkaliggas of Karnataka ?
Delete"Many SC/STs can have blue and green eyes which are absent in higher castes apart from Brahmins" --- This is very interesting. I have never seen a brahmin with with blue/green eyes in cow belt(up, bihar). Lot of them have fair skin but never blue or green eyes. Sometimes brown eyes but never blue.
SCs and STs of Andhra having blue eyes make it also very interesting.
No Gouds of AP and Gowdas of Karnataka are different. Vokkaliga/Gowda correspond more to Reddys of AP . Goud find its cognate in Billava of Karnataka and Idiga of TN , both toddy tapper castes, though its more closely related to the former.
DeleteThere was a famouse rebel bandit called Pappan Goud who proved a headache for Aurangzeb as he constantly outsmarted and slaugtered the generals who tried to have him captured. He once became so powerful as to gain audience with Bahadur SHah. However he was in it for self aggrandizement and power and was notorious for kidnapping raping women -Hindu or Muslim. Ultimately he was captured and executed. If he combined his guerilla skills with a stately vision and nobility of character then he could be a Shivaji type personality and we would have Telugus instead of Marathas reaching from Attock to Bengal smashing Muslim polities along the way. But it wasnt meant to be.
- "This is very interesting. I have never seen a brahmin with with blue/green eyes in cow belt(up, bihar). Lot of them have fair skin but never blue or green eyes. Sometimes brown eyes but never blue.
DeleteSCs and STs of Andhra having blue eyes make it also very interesting."
Google images of Melanesian blue eyes/ blonde hair and you will notice this is not due to an European admixture. Genetics proved the same.
I never met a Bihari with light eyes but I assumed that UP upper castes could have those features. Of course Bengali, and Marathi Brahmins often do.
Shivalli Brahmins, Iyengars and Niyogis of AP can occasionally have light eyed. Look at a photo of Narasimhan Ram, the long time editor of The Hindu, he looks almost like a Pathan. Brown hair is be found rarely in the south - sometimes in Iyengars, Kerala Muslims and some Reddys. APart from the occasional Tulu and Coorgi.
It is far more common in the north especially among Gujaratis, Sindhis and Western UP. Never mind Kashmiris of course.
AL Basham mentioned that over time brown hair was considered inauspicious and hence it was somewhat bred out. But from the Gujarati, Pahari and Rajput paintings I see dated around the 18th century, many characters do seem to have brown hair. And their features seem more delicate compared to today, more like an Eastern European. Though this could be artistic convention as that particular medium tends to give people more acquiline looks than they actually posess.
"Google images of Melanesian blue eyes/ blonde hair and you will notice this is not due to an European admixture. Genetics proved the same." ---- I knew about an independent mutation in the melanasians being responsible for the moderately-high frequency of blonde hair but i was not aware of the presence of blue eyes in them. After google search, it seems that the blue eyes among melanasians is an extremely rare trait as opposed to the blonde hair.
DeleteThe european blonde eye and blue eyed trait also seems to have evolved separately. Blue eyes seems to have evolved in the western europe and blonde in the eastern ones. Migration to western europe from steppe and nearby regions since copper age seems to have brought blonde hair to western europe(this is what some folks conclude from ancient DNAs).
"I never met a Bihari with light eyes but I assumed that UP upper castes could have those features. Of course Bengali, and Marathi Brahmins often do." --- yes, chitpavan brahmins. Even UP brahmins don't have light eyes generally. Generally lighter skin .
The early Europeans were said to have very dark skin with blue eyes. In Ireland, these were referred to as the Black Irish. Blue eyed Melanesians are a minority but its not really rare.
DeleteIn Kapu and Yadav communities, I often see men who have the looks and build of Denzel Washington . If they were in U.S they would be models or actors but due to the obsession with fair skin the society does not recognize their worth. Though ironically Rama and Krishna were much closer to this look than say Hrithik Roshan haha
has there been a genetic study of Chitpavan Brahmins and their origins? They were supposed to have fled from Peshawar area fleeingg the Ghaznavid invasions . But none of their customs suggest this. Neither do they any Hindko words in their vocabulary. They werent really considered to be Vedic scholars or purohit but a jack of all trades type of Brahmins. Similar to Niyogis of AP and Tyagis of UP.
"This communiity is absent in education" --- What do you mean by 'absent in education' ? We already have reservation in higher education and their literacy rate has improved with time. Their education is highly subsidized compared to other population along with caste-based scholariships. Just check out the total fees for a General or OBC male undergrad student vs SC or ST male undergrad student in any IIT/NIT.
ReplyDeleteIf you are talking about very small number of SC professors, scientists(in ISRO , DRDO) , do you think having affirmative action here is going to solve the problem ?
I dont know what the answer is but it is not reservations or affirmative action. Hindu society put itself in this situation with some assitance from British meddling and more distantly Buddhism distaste for various professiosn which seeped into Hinduism.
DeleteBut here it is. The issue is that many dont even see the problem and when someone like me points it out- oh im an NRI who doesnt live there, a desh drohi, I am working for JNU, collecting money from Rothschhild etc.
Well I did live there and then I i moved away. When I lived there, I just took everything for granted and never thought twice about these issues. Granted I was rather young but the pointt is Indians live in a bubble of their own world and they dont even notice the rampant filth and poverty all around them. It takes an outsider to point it out and we all know the reaction when that happens. Compare this to complimentary reaction videos by foreigners of some Hindi or Telugu movie. The Indian mindset is currentlyy not equipped to deal with reality. Its better they start waking up before reality smacks in the face with a sledgehammer.
"Hindu society put itself in this situation with some assitance from British meddling " ---- Do you think that there was some sense of common hindu identity which the hindutvawadis seem to to propagate these days ? If jaatis like jats, gurjars (most of whom were barely 'hindu' till 3 centuries ago) beat up weaker up castes people in their villages, how does it become "hinduism's fault" ?
Delete"Buddhism distaste for various professiosn which seeped into Hinduism." ---- granted that there were occupations that were considered dirty and thus, the people associated with it but again, a decent chunk of SC jaatis were not involved in such menial, dirty jobs. Professor Ramnarayan Rawat wrote a great book(book's name is Reconsidering Untouchability) on the history of chamars of north india, and using colonial era archives, he proves that most of them had nothing to do with leather tanning. They were employed in agriculture so it's a wonder how the tag of chamar came up and got attached to these people !!
"The issue is that many dont even see the problem and when someone like me points it out- oh im an NRI who doesnt live there, a desh drohi, I am working for JNU, collecting money from Rothschhild etc." ---- Dude, i understand there is a problem(for god's sake my home state is bihar) but what's the solution here ? That was the whole point of political reservation(vidhan sabha, lok sabha) or representation if you want to call it. That's the whole point of lakhs of crores of budget alloted for their welfare each year. Where is the money going then ? Accountability is needed from both sides.
Btw, I am not the nationalist type :).
"they dont even notice the rampant filth and poverty all around them." ---- lol, we all notice it but most of us have gotten desensitized to it. 135 crores and counting with the population of UP, Bihar still on the high , how are we going to reduce poverty ? High fertility rare of poor groups(3.5-4+) don't help either.
"whatever you wish to call them, their situation is pitiful." ---- i know,in bihar, there is a "maha-dalit" jaati known as musahar who are probably the most deprived SC jaati in india however, some are relatively better off like the nava-bauddha of Maharashtra(their literacy rate,TFR is beter compared to average marathi population). So, probably some kind of sub-categorization of jaatis within SCs during reservation might help (granted this might reduce the cut-off marks even more for the more backward SC jaatis).
Sometimes i wonder if setting up villages full of landless SCs and giving them agricultural land would have been one of the small steps that would have served them better.
"Do you think that there was some sense of common hindu identity which the hindutvawadis seem to to propagate these days ? If jaatis like jats, gurjars (most of whom were barely 'hindu' till 3 centuries ago) beat up weaker up castes people in their villages, how does it become "hinduism's fault" ?"
DeleteHindutva originally was very anti discrimination. Savarkar made it a point of dining with Dalits. Back then it was a very big deal. Even RSS organises these things occasionally I think. Jats aand Gurjar have been Hindu for a long time. Whhat makes you think otherwise?
"granted that there were occupations that were considered dirty and thus, the people associated with it but again, a decent chunk of SC jaatis were not involved in such menial, dirty jobs. Professor Ramnarayan Rawat wrote a great book(book's name is Reconsidering Untouchability) on the history of chamars of north india, and using colonial era archives, he proves that most of them had nothing to do with leather tanning. They were employed in agriculture so it's a wonder how the tag of chamar came up and got attached to these people !!"
I agree, actually many SCs have had kshatriya or even princely background. To a lesser extent STs . However as their position degrades they get lumped in with the others. Regarding chamars it could be some of them branched out into leather tanning under Muslim rule as it was profitable and since it may have been a smaller community, the entire group got reprimanded by others. This is just a theory but group punishments of communities and their degradation were known to occur especially if the elite are responsible. This phenomenon is represented by the story of drunken Yadavs taunting sages and engaging in anti social activity which led to their loss of Kshatriya status at the end of Mahabharata.
"Dude, i understand there is a problem(for god's sake my home state is bihar) but what's the solution here ? That was the whole point of political reservation(vidhan sabha, lok sabha) or representation if you want to call it. That's the whole point of lakhs of crores of budget alloted for their welfare each year. Where is the money going then ? Accountability is needed from both sides.
DeleteBtw, I am not the nationalist type :)."
I wasnt speaking of you specifically. But those labels and thought process has been thrown at me. Regarding desensitization -yes , when you are desensitization you either mentally block out the effects of what you see or some even dont just see it. Either way the apathy towards sorroundings remains. Unless there is a Singapore type approach by local municipalities to such behavior for a couple of generations so that the habits are ingrained, this will likely not improve.
Regarding the money being allocated, whether in U.S, U.K or even India, most money doesnt go to the intended recipients but to special interest groups and even politicians own pockets. Throwing money at a problem never works because someone else always catches that money.
"know,in bihar, there is a "maha-dalit" jaati known as musahar who are probably the most deprived SC jaati in india however, some are relatively better off like the nava-bauddha of Maharashtra(their literacy rate,TFR is beter compared to average marathi population). So, probably some kind of sub-categorization of jaatis within SCs during reservation might help (granted this might reduce the cut-off marks even more for the more backward SC jaatis).
Sometimes i wonder if setting up villages full of landless SCs and giving them agricultural land would have been one of the small steps that would have served them better."
In medeival Europe you had these laws called sumptuary laws- basically it was illegal for normal people to enjoy luxuries such as silk clothing , perfumes and food with expensive spices even if they could afford it. There is an American saying which came about in the last 15 years or so when closed elitism masquerading as environmentalism and animals rights came to the fore - "This is why we cant have nice things"
In many areas- certainly parts of AP, any Dalit who has house higher than the upper castes will simply be killed. Last year we talked about a Dalit who was killed for riding a horse to impress some upper caste girls. He didnt even touch them, possibly at the most made a crude comment , we dont know. The point is even as Dalits continue to do well, many upper castes dont want them to flaunt their wealth and this just leads to an exodus to cities. Where they end up changing their caste titles. This happens in AP particularly with surname Naidu which is originally a Kapu title. Or even Rao- which was reserved for Kammas and Brahmins. It is only when they try to marry into these castes they get found out. Generally inter caste marriage of this sort is incredibly rare.
The thrust of all is that the Dalits are not trying to up end the system but trying to become a part of it. In a few generations they will become an middle or upper caste with enough wealth and connections(often marrying poor upper caste girls just as Prabhakaran did) and they themselves will persecute Dalits. And the cycle repeats. Breaking this cycle requires a mental overhaul.
"Jats and Gurjar have been Hindu for a long time. What makes you think otherwise?" ---- Lots of jaats especially the ones aligned with Aadi-kisaan philosophy claim so. They were telling that the villages folks mostly worshipped the local folk deities , ancestors at local shrines which didn't involve brahmin priests. Most of them claim that they became "hindu" in the last 150 years due to the efforts of Arya Samaj. There is some truth to it. Lots of temples featuring primarily gangetic plains dieties like Ram, Hanuman have been built only in the past 50 years.
DeleteEver heard of these ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopa
"In many areas- certainly parts of AP, any Dalit who has house higher than the upper castes will simply be killed. " ---- Oh damn, this is insane. It seems that rural parts of south india can be quite brutual .
"Last year we talked about a Dalit who was killed for riding a horse to impress some upper caste girls. " --- Yeah, this was in Gujarat. Western parts of india has strange obsession with horses and privileges associated with the beast lol. This obsession is not present in eastern states like bihar.
I believe an incident happened in gujarat earlier this year where an OBC community(thakor-koli) stopped an SC groom from riding horse during his wedding. Few days later, i came across a news from gujarat where an SC army man rode on an elephant during his wedding ;) (probably he didn't want anyone dragging him down from the horse and may be it was kind of a challenge :/).
"The point is even as Dalits continue to do well, many upper castes dont want them to flaunt their wealth and this just leads to an exodus to cities." ---- yeah ,i understand that migrating to cities is a better option for them. Abhinav Prakash(the hindutvawadi SC guy whose piece i linked in an earlier comment)also recommends them migrating to cities.
"Breaking this cycle requires a mental overhaul." ---- This is why activists talk about annhilation of brahmanism and hinduism(whatever that means).
"The thrust of all is that the Dalits are not trying to up end the system but trying to become a part of it." --- Lots of them are (with help from some mainland STs and some OBCs) but they probably don't know how to end a decentralized, autonomous system like this.
Delete"There is an American saying which came about in the last 15 years or so when closed elitism masquerading as environmentalism and animals rights came to the fore" --- What's wrong with environmentalism and animal rights ? What's the point of luxuries when one doesn't have clean water to drink and fresh air to breathe ? One good that lockdown has done is that it has reduced the PM2.5 levels of many indian cities especially Delhi.
DeleteWhen I speak of environmentalism, its not pollution whose effcts are tangible ,observable and confirmed by the scientific community. I speak of this amorphous climate change (isnt it suspicious they changed it from global warming which in turn used to be global cooling in the 1970s) . I just find it very suspicious that all these people evangelizing about climate change themselves live very privileged lives and show no inclination to change their high carbon consuming lifestyles. In this age of free video streaming , there iss absolutely no need to fly across the world on private jets to attend a seminar on the needs for the world(i.e common people) to lower their carbon footprint. And those who shriek about rising sea levels themselves seem to be in no hurry of leaving their beachfront mansions. Prediction after prediction by climate change alarmists keeping failling(snowfall maybe a thing of the past- written in 2000, there will be no polar ice caps by 2011-Al Gore in 2003). Its bullshit after bullshit. I was once a believer but like many of those formerly devout Christians who were scammed and led astray by apocalyptic preachers and their failed prophesies, I possess a dose of healthy skepticism. Environmentalism also raises house prices astronomically as well hyper accelerating the regulatory state. Meanwhile animal rights are another way to deny ordinary people meat even as elites gorge on these themselves. People like Vadakayil are primary example of this moral degradation and hypocrisy.
DeleteAnd speaking of clean water and food, I have heard various flippant remarks that Dalits are used to living in filth and hunger so they dont need those things anyway. Why would you provide clean water, food and air to those who you view as subhuman? This is another version of sumptuary laws.
The problem of Delhi is the density , bad quality controls on vehicles and fuels but also geography. There is really no place for the air to escape easily.
Coming back to the topic of this post- what are your viewss on Western pagans? And what can be our role in helping them?
ReplyDeleteDidn't watch the youtube videos you linked lol, let's first think about helping the underprivileged pagans in india :).
Delete"Lots of jaats especially the ones aligned with Aadi-kisaan philosophy claim so. They were telling that the villages folks mostly worshipped the local folk deities , ancestors at local shrines which didn't involve brahmin priests. Most of them claim that they became "hindu" in the last 150 years due to the efforts of Arya Samaj. There is some truth to it. Lots of temples featuring primarily gangetic plains dieties like Ram, Hanuman have been built only in the past 50 years.
ReplyDeleteEver heard of these ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopa"
hahaha. If that is your criteria then majority of Hindus were non Hindu not too long ago. Why should brahmin priests be required for folk rituals? Arya Samaj is yet another corrosive effect on Hinduism, their mania for monotheism really damages and confused their adherents.
A lot of temples were destroyed by marauding Muslims in the Gangetic plains, so its natural they would rebuildd them after the Nawabs andMughals ruling them were smashed by the British. About 150 years ago. And that includes Ramajanmabhoomi. Look I dont care if they found archaeological evidence or not- Hindus believe that is Ramajanmabhoomi . Therefore case closed. What does the supreme court come in. Should Hindus and neo Arab pagans go to Mecca and demand archaeological evidence of Mohammad existence in order for the structure to remain standing?
Perhaps the only thing I agree with Hindutvadis is building the temple . And they wont even do that as they wont have that carrot to dangle voters with.
Read your post.
ReplyDeleteHere are my observations so far:
1. The Dalit problem is deeper than what it seems on the outside. It is not just Hindus but Muslims too who oppress lower castes. Increasingly these days, an underclass of Muslims who call themselves Pasmandas are challenging the Syeds and Ashrafs as they call upper caste Muslims. This in part could explain why Owaisi's Dalit-Muslim unity project has failed. The Pasmandas promptly dug out an instance where Owaisi forced a Hyderabadi Imam to issue a fatwa against reservations for OBC/SC Muslims and many more, thus sabotaging his bigger project. More than Jai Bhim, Jai Mim, I hear chants of Jai Bhim, Jai Pasmanda.
2. Are not RSS aggressively courting Dalits now? I am seeing plenty of them acting as attack dogs for RSS apart from OBCs. This was most evident in the recent Delhi riots.
3. That was a very interesting take on the Tibetans. I never understood how China ruled Tibet without half the trouble they face in Uighur areas. Thank you.
4. Sadly most Hindus today are no better than barking dogs. They prefer to live in their own fantasies than deal with reality. Apathy and indifference are so deeply ingrained in them, especially the middle class, that nothing will wake them up except a sledgehammer blow to the face. This is the truth.
1. You are correct. In many Hindus and Muslims of the same castes generally get along. I heard during the Muzzafarpur riots Jat Hindus left the higher castes alone and wrecked their vengeance on lower caste Muslims. Owaisi spends a lot of time talking about lower castes in general whether Hindu or Muslim. Even though he is Ashraf- or claims to be. Some say his grandfather was a Kamma convert.
Delete2. RSS has been including Dalits for a long time. THis I give them credit for. However just they freeze higher castes intellectual and economic development- they do the same for Dalits. It is a regressive organization regardless.
3. Tibetans in China are given considerable autonomy. They even carry their traditional knives with them- which Han Chinese cannot do. I prefer Tibet to be independent but it seems the oversees Tibetans are just runnign a scam pretending to agitate for independence while fleecing foreigners. Tibetan monks in India have iphones and drive expensive cars.
4. It is the illusion of safety and protection (larges army, population sorrounded by mountains and seas) that makes the average Hindu complacent. These things are useless against the enemy within
"It is not just Hindus but Muslims too who oppress lower castes. Increasingly these days, an underclass of Muslims who call themselves Pasmandas are challenging the Syeds and Ashrafs as they call upper caste Muslims." ---- i believe the epicenter of this movement has been bihar where Ali Anwar and an organization AIPMM(All India Pashmanda Muslim Mahaz) has been demanding Scheduled caste status for pashmanda muslims for more than a decade.
Delete"In many Hindus and Muslims of the same castes generally get along." ---- Yes, remember about ho-halla that was made over Navjot singh Siddhu hugging Pakistani General Bajwa. That was more of a jat sentiment as both are them are jats.
And it's not just the hindus and muslims of same castes. Back in the old days, in bihar too, hindu rajputs and muslim pathans shared good camradarie.
"Yes, remember about ho-halla that was made over Navjot singh Siddhu hugging Pakistani General Bajwa. That was more of a jat sentiment as both are them are jats."'
DeleteYes and also there was some outrage that Siddhus felt more at home in Lahore due to similar food, clothings ,language compared to Tamil Nadu. He is not wrong obviously. Sikhs have lot more in common with Muslim Punjabis than with Tamils.
However I really dont want to hear lectures on patriotism and how brave Punjabis are protecting entire Bharatmata to south Indians and other communities EVER AGAIN. If you ask me these Punjabis in the military should be considered a national security threat as they are easily swayed by Punjabi bhai bhai sentiment. I mentioned in a post earlier on.
Ill tell you all something funny- checking the stats of the blog today I found that some has used plagscan to access the blog. Its a plagiarism detector. I can only surmise that since I keep taking Vadakayil to task for shamelessly copying nay stealing other peoples content (no attribution) , therefore some captain bhakt took it upon himself to try do the same to me. Im sure they are disappointed because unlike them I dont steal and cheat people of their content. Everything is my own and there is some idea or content that I use to generate my posts, I attribute them (to the best of my recollection). IF someone points out something here they saw before I will address it.
ReplyDeleteRe Rohan
ReplyDelete"You don't consider yourself a hindutvadi? @Ysv_Rao"
NO, why would I? If I dont care for Muslim rule and atrocities in past and present India, I suppose that puts in the Hindutva category . HOwever Hindutva is narrow, regional view of Hinduism and is very poor in understanding and encompassing regional histories.Hindutva is best suited for UP,Rajastan,Gujarat ,MP,Punjab, Haryana- states which were affected worst by Muslim conquest and rule. Southern states which put Muslims on notice and whose rule sat lightly(the Nizam was powerless outside his capital, he would heavily depend on Reddys and Velamas to impose order, same with the Arcot Nawabas and the Polygars) dont really go for this Muslim stuff as it portrays as eternal victims when we werent. I would rather celebrate victories of Hinduism than wallow in defeat (such as the bizarre "800 saal ki ghulami"- my ancestors were never slaves to Muslims). Ultimately Hindutva in a victimhood perpetrating ideology which I have no interest in.
Hi YSV,
ReplyDeleteBinge watched the Fauda season 1 on Netflix. Absolutely brilliant! Thanks for recommending this.
Will watch seasons 2 and 3 also.
And meanwhile Amul Marketing Officer threatened our Captain with legal repercussions if he kept flooding them with mails on A1 vs A2 milk..lol..Now Captain says he has declared a truce till this Corona gets over..
Not at all. Glad you liked. I think season 3 is probably the best one. Season 2 is so so till towards the end which are the best episodes. It is from season 3, that i noticed the operational finesse of the team who in real life served in Israeli special forces infiltrating Arab areas. Regardless of your political views, it is a great series. Even Palestinians like it a great deal as it doesnt demonize them and gives the antagonists very human ,sympathetic and relatable faces and motivations.
DeleteHahaha Captain is simply a tool and a coward. HIs problem is that despite his claims of being spiritually uplifted he is just an average every guy who is quite attached to his material needs- his wealth, property etc. A defamation suit will quickly strip him of all this. He is accustomed to a luxurious lifestyle and will be first to plead for clemency.