Recommended YouTube Channel: Thomas Sheridan
This individual is a genuine European pagan in that most pagans are into costume shows and theatrics without realizing the essence of what is lost. At the same time an astute of human psychology and history. A good part of his channel involving paranormal which he manages to explain on a more or less common sense and scientific manner
He sees through the BS of the elites and their Abrahamic and crypto Abrahmic mindsets without obsessing about Jews even he considers their diety Yahweh a demon.
Let us say he is a conspiracy theorist with common sense. I often steal shameless from his videos haha
Website
mossuponstones.com
YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFfLoo34R6z0hz-9pZtBuHQ
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgRBoOKHFoIDJjtrle4IsGA
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoJgaiSe0sxRDz42zr3KOjw
Please consider buying his books. YouTube demonetized a lot of his videos
http://box5641.temp.domains/~mossupon/category/book-shop/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39449377-sorcery
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22523718-walpurgis-night
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31324369-the-druid-code
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17293568-the-anvil-of-the-psyche
Patreon Account
https://www.patreon.com/thomassheridan
He sees through the BS of the elites and their Abrahamic and crypto Abrahmic mindsets without obsessing about Jews even he considers their diety Yahweh a demon.
Let us say he is a conspiracy theorist with common sense. I often steal shameless from his videos haha
Website
mossuponstones.com
YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFfLoo34R6z0hz-9pZtBuHQ
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgRBoOKHFoIDJjtrle4IsGA
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoJgaiSe0sxRDz42zr3KOjw
Please consider buying his books. YouTube demonetized a lot of his videos
http://box5641.temp.domains/~mossupon/category/book-shop/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39449377-sorcery
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22523718-walpurgis-night
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31324369-the-druid-code
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17293568-the-anvil-of-the-psyche
Patreon Account
https://www.patreon.com/thomassheridan
Sir,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the recommendation. Looks like a knowledgeable man. Will definitely check out all his works.
Thank you.
Sir,
ReplyDeleteHave you followed recent developments in the Gulf? A lot of prominent Arabs have now spoken out against RSS and its activities in India. Some Sanghis sitting there were spewing venom against Muslims and have run into trouble. They were terminated from their jobs and some of them are facing arrest also.
Without realizing the gravity of the situation, BJP trolls on Twitter were spamming those Arabs who spoke out against Sanghis. Now the Arabs are even more angry.
I came across this tweet this morning.
https://twitter.com/alnassar_kw/status/1251938253646835716
By posting nasty shit on the Internet, Sanghis seem to have gotten a lot of Indians into trouble.
What could happen? Will Indians lose jobs in the Middle East and never get any in the future?
Oddly most of these guys seem to be Mangalore or North Kerala. That is a BJP stronghold in the south for reasons I dont quite get. What aggravated them is that Indonesian get together for Muslims in Delhi defying social distancing orders. If they had condemned that it would be allowed in UAE as even UAE shut down mosque prayers. But they went ahead and spewed abuse against Muslims in general. As of now they are now just been fired and their visa revoked. It does not appear that they will be arrested but will be simply deported
DeleteAl Nassar is over reacted to some years old tweet by a guy who didnt have any power back then and even then he was quoting a Muslim. I do believe it is stupid inflammatory tweet. Best for him to disown it. But I dont think much will come out of this. Most of anti Modi sentiment will come from within India. If foreign Muslims are smart they will keep their criticism to a minimum as anything they say will be viewed even by Modi bashers as an attack on their country.
You talking about historum? All I know about that site is DronaBharadwaj is Based.
ReplyDeleteLook at the way i type my comment do you think High IQ individuals like DronaBharadwaj would type like that?
ReplyDeleteDrona Bharadawaja is a Kashmiri Brahmin who is quite knowledgable in Sanskrit and even studied Telugu. However he has the wrong idea about cows and is rather casteist for my taste.
ReplyDeleteIm pretty sure he is not a fan of Vadakayil ,so "A follower" cant be him.
@Rohan
ReplyDeletere Bhrigu
My beef (ahem) with Bhrigu is that he was singing praises of Rajputs well beyond their sell bye date. And used that to bash South Indians. All this Brahmin Rajput propagandist was considered Pathans and Turks as superior soldiers. The latter were superior cavalry for sure but as infantry they were notorious for simply fleeing when the going got tough, calling for a truce and betraying it, attacking people when their guard was down even as downtime was agreed upon. And host of other dirty tricks. If it werent for dirty tricks, Muslim rulers wouldnt be able to impose their will on India.
I made a post about how Pathans arent really that tough. Their history is testament to it. Their courage is mostly a show. What people consider courage is really ferocity and penchant for cruelty and that lasts about a few minutes at the most.
ReplyDeleteAnyone have any input as to the topic of the post- Western paganism?
ReplyDelete" Drona Bharadawaja is a Kashmiri Brahmin who is quite knowledgable in Sanskrit and even studied Telugu" ---- I am neither a member of this historum website nor know who this DronaBhardwaja is but this description of being a kashmiri pandit + dabbling in telugu sounds like that "TrueIndology" guy on Twitter. May be that DronaBhardwaja is TrueIndology's alias on historum !!
ReplyDeleteIts possible. I am not familiar with TrueIndology. I suppose there are not too many Kashmiri Pundits out there who have interest in Telugu hahaha
ReplyDeletehttps://pajeet.top/pol/res/55712.html
ReplyDeleteParticipate in this
No one is saying anything of value. It is the usual self masturbation of these suvarna edgelords lacking in any knowledge of the real world.
DeleteWhile they may be lacking some knowledge of real world, they are not completely wrong about the demography and it's implications.
Delete" Only 18% of Indians were Forward Castes in 2011 Census. " --- I don't know where he got this number. Afaik, nation wide Census doesn't count the percentage of General/FCs and OBCs. It only counts the % of SCs and STs and their percentage have indeed increased since independence. They also have higher TFR relative to other groups in almost every state except kerala.
You should know that at least for political reservation, SCs and STs get reservation in proportion to their population. This means that more lok sabha and vidhan sabha seats will get reserved in the upcoming delimitation exercise.
OBCs don't get political reservation but they might start feeling the pinch in the near future since it's "their" seats(rural areas/constituencies with higher farming castes populations , most farming jaatis are in OBCs) which will get reserved and this might lead to "uncomfortable" situations.
Anyways,as per my estimates, the total % of General Category(jaatis which didn't get any reservation till 10% EWS reservation came into being) would be at max 15% through out india.
However, we know that the general category consists of your usual dwijas(brahmin, rajputs) and non-dvijas(some castes who had a traditionally farming background) like Jats of Haryana, Patidars of Gujarat, Kapus,kamma of andhra etc. Per my guess, the dvija pooulation(the true "upper castes" ) is at most 6%-7%.
Recently, there had been calls for nationwide caste census(determining the exact population of General and OBC). The government chickened out because it knew what would happen if the act were to be carried out and numbers were to be released :) and thus, didn't act upon the proposal.
My guess is that there would be some intra-country migration of at least the dwijas population. May be they will move to Uttarakhand or Himachal which has a very high % of brahmins and rajputs :) .
" a Savarna women engulped by the matriarchal power of media thinks she is something special while wagecucking her life in a corporate confinement prison all in the name of freedom" ---- lol, so true.
No these people remain fucking stupid. They are unable to deal with the reality that Forward castes are the ones who ran the country into the ground. As they continue to do so. Politicians whether forward ,OBC or Dalit main imperative is to remain in power and the best way to do that is to make only cosmetic changes in governance and incremental advances in the economy. THe poorer the people are the better.
DeleteThe average upper caste person was a fool for beleiving Indira Gandhi when they drastically reduced their populations even as Dalit population exploded. This was by design. They did this as they envisioned a permanent vote bank but now ended upp as a ticking time bomb for the country as a whole.
"My guess is that there would be some intra-country migration of at least the dwijas population. May be they will move to Uttarakhand or Himachal which has a very high % of brahmins and rajputs :) "
How exactlyy will these feudal people improve governance. Not too long ago there were upper caste people in HP who didnt want electricity because the lines passed over lower caste houses. This is the mentality we are dealinng with. UP which has probably the highest Brahmin population in the country is a prime example of malgovernance.
" a Savarna women engulped by the matriarchal power of media thinks she is something special while wagecucking her life in a corporate confinement prison all in the name of freedom" ---- lol, so true.
True for whom exactly? I will say that many women are not suited for the corporate life and are actually not happy working- especially in Western socieities. I would say this is probably the opposite in India. They find a lot of family obligations to be genuinely stifling and wish to have financial independence. Terms like "Wagecucking" and "corporate confinement prison" indicates that not only have these guys never spoken with many women but also they never did a days work in their entire life.
As I said these are sheltered college weirdos acting on the net.
" They are unable to deal with the reality that Forward castes are the ones who ran the country into the ground." ---- lol, true. They have remained in power for most of the time both pre-independence and post-independence. I often find it hilarious when kayasthas talk about muslim oppression.
ReplyDelete"Politicians whether forward ,OBC or Dalit main imperative is to remain in power and the best way to do that is to make only cosmetic changes in governance and incremental advances in the economy." ---- True.
"The average upper caste person was a fool for beleiving Indira Gandhi when they drastically reduced their populations even as Dalit population exploded. This was by design. " --- i always thought that the decrease in UC birth rate was because of higher urbanization, more emphasis on higher education especially female education.Btw, what kind of belief over indira gandhi are we talking about ? I am not aware of this.
"Not too long ago there were upper caste people in HP who didnt want electricity because the lines passed over lower caste houses" ---- This sounds made up to me . Even if this is true, such people would be in extreme minority. Pahadi SCs/dalits are on average much better than their counterparts in the plains. The rate of "atrocities"/crimes against SCs(government publishes crimes data every year, you can google for NCRB pdf) in pahadi states is also lower compared to states like UP, Bihar or even tamil nadu.
"True for whom exactly? " --- 20 something middle, upper-middle class UC women working in corporate world(at least from my experience when i was doing a job in bangalore). "Wagecucking" and all that are amateurish terms but i believe a lot of them had unnecessary high standards for partner/marriage and they delayed their marriages to find the "rightmost" person until they find themselves at 35 years of age.
"They find a lot of family obligations to be genuinely stifling and wish to have financial independence" ---- This would not be exactly true for urban middle class UC women. The parental pressures that they have to face is generally less.
"Terms like "Wagecucking" and "corporate confinement prison" indicates that not only have these guys never spoken with many women but also they never did a days work in their entire life." ---- lol.
"UP which has probably the highest Brahmin population in the country is a prime example of malgovernance." --- UCs blame it on reservation in government jobs and high funding for social justice programs :) .
Delete
DeleteThe reality of Muslim invasion is that the OBCs gave the hardest fight. Rajputs were most effective in their earlier years when they were ragtag combination of Gurjars, Chalukyas, Rashtrakutas, renegate Kshatriyas from Gupta and Harshavardhan houses and the occasional Huna and Brahmin. Initially there wasnt that much barrier to entry to become a Rajput . But once ossfied , all the infighting and ritualized warfare started . Only Rana Pratap was an exception to this. Kayasthas such as Khatris now go around saying they used to Kshatriyas who turned to bookish pursuits when this is not the case. Though Kayasthas in Maharashtra and Bengal had a martial past. THe Kakatiyas used these proto Maratha as their cavalry. I believe SCB was Kayashta as well as Vivekananda.
How reliable are statistics in these remote areas? I never considered TN or Bihar to havens of egalitarianism. TN is even worse than Bihar when it comes to OBC Dalit marriage rates. However its possible its not the case now in HP. A lot of Westernized folk live there I suppose.
I am not considering the European, American or Westernized Indian women graduating from elite schools but women from a lower strata of society and a feudal family for whom this is truly a breath of fresh air. For the former women, this work is really a sort of timepass. Their heart is not in it. You can see it in the (usually) useless degrees they have such as HR, Marketing and International Relations. Generally middle class and lower middle class girls have degrees in engineering and IT. The really rich have degrees in Arts, Literature or at the most Economics.
When I mention Indira Gandhi , I read some sociologists who stated while Indira Gandhi was despised for her sterilization programs and even people revolted by having more children, years after her assasination she was seen as some type of revolutionary and upper castes decision to have fewer children was in her honor. Urbanization and education plays a role too. But what percent of upper caste vs lower castes are urban dwellers.
Delete"UP which has probably the highest Brahmin population in the country is a prime example of malgovernance." --- UCs blame it on reservation in government jobs and high funding for social justice programs :) .
I dont really look at these matters in terms of caste but power and the status quo. The upper castes dont suffer that much in states with limited economic mobility such as UP hence there is no reason for them to rock the boat. The issue with bizarre antics such as Mayawati spending crores on her self aggrandizement is people should realize this is a phase. Just as blacks in U.S coming from eras from socially approved humiliation suddenly upon emancipation induldge in flashy clothing and expression such as gangsta rap which is pure self adulation. That is a form of compensation for a low self worth.
Dalits upon achieving economic and political clout will do such garish and tasteless things but that is just human psychology. It will pass. However generally speaking it is in the interest of OBC and Dalit to focus on administration and day to day problems. As these tend to be a very practical and dynamic people , less focussed on theory but purely on action which is what is need in leaders. Excessive education kills a leaders instinct for administration and handling people and their various egos. This is I roll my eyes when some mentions that this politicians son such as CBN studied at Stanford and Carnegie Mellon and hence he will fix everything. Hahahaha, no . If anything he will be a worse technocrat that Bill Gates who will shut the world down and destroy economies until they find vaccines. People with excessive education tend to be control freaks and should be only in advisory capacity not in leadership positions.
@ Rohan Yes Rajpus did win many battles against Ghazni and Khilji but lost in the end. THe early Rajputs beat back most Arab invasion handily. And Baladitya who was like a Rajput finished off the Huns even as he didnt possess the resources of Guptas. These later Rajputs were richer and had far more resources but couldnt finish the job.
DeleteBrahmins were generals i.e Senapathi but it is not exactly known if this always a combat role or that of a strategist. For sure in southern kingdoms every minister usually Brahmin was expected to fight. During a war between Chalukyas and Cholas, a famous poet ,I forget his name, was advised to drop the pen and pick the sword.
However Rajputs and Brahmins both were happy to serve under Muslim rulers . Though generally their influence tended to Hinduize the ruler as occurred with Golkonda and Rajput generals prevented a lot of temple destruction from Aurangzeb.
Prataparudra IMO lacked foresight and vision as he waged a purely defensive war. Some of things he did was rather foolish as emptying his rations of the fort as he didnt anticipate the return of the Turks.
More impressive is the chieftain Musunuri Nayaka who liberated Warangal from Turks after Kakatiyas defeat . The very first time that Muslim rule was ousted in India by a Hindu cheif. He also proceeded to smash a mosque which was erected there by Tughlaq. Though later on he also did something foolish such as befriending Alauddin Bahman SHah and helping him set up a base-of course the dirty Turko Afghan habits came to fore and Bahman stabbed him in the bank and invaded his territory leading to the Bahmani Empire.
Ferishta claims that this Bahman killed 500,000 people in Karnataka every year. Such absurd claims by Muslim historians became the basis of inflated numbers of the "Hindu Holocaust" .
"Only Rana Pratap was an exception to this. Kayasthas such as Khatris now go around saying they used to Kshatriyas who turned to bookish" ---->
DeleteSince when are khatris kayasthas ? Kayasthas are a gangetic plain group while khatri origins are in the north-west. Occupation wise, khatris have been bania-like for centuries though they claim to be kshatriyas.
"Though Kayasthas in Maharashtra and Bengal had a martial past" ----> In bengal, possibly yes as "dutt/datta" is one of bengali kayastha clan which possibly links them to the "martial" muhiyal brahmins(dutt clan) of the north-west.
Yes, SCB and vivekanand(Narendranath Dutta) were both kulin kayasthas.
"The upper castes dont suffer that much in states with limited economic mobility such as UP hence there is no reason for them to rock the boat." --- yeah, Lots of them have decent chunks of land which they give on lease to other folks and keep getting steady income.
"Excessive education kills a leaders instinct for administration and handling people and their various egos" ----> yeah, true.
"However Rajputs and Brahmins both were happy to serve under Muslim rulers" ----> i always thought this was case. Apart from foreign muslims, weren't a lot of beaureacratic posts in the muslims empires were held by brahmins, rajputs and kayasthas ? It's generally claimed that the present day rajputs in bihar are the ones who accompanied muslim rulers and later settled down there.
"Yes. Indians in general lost in the end" ---> Fighting in an alien land with a lot of alien soldiers, how did these muslim rulers eventually win ? What was the the composition of khilji's army btw ?
"How reliable are statistics in these remote areas? " ---> yes, reliability can be an issue when we are dealing with remote areas though we have reservation in police also so if the local officer happens to be an SC then he/she may not back down from writing a complaint.
Delete"For the former women, this work is really a sort of timepass. Their heart is not in it. You can see it in the (usually) useless degrees they have such as HR, Marketing and International Relations." ----> i was talking about these kind of women.
@YSV, what's origin of Gupta kings of gangetic plains ? Lot of people link them to bania probably because of the last name "gupta" but even brahmins like vishnugupta and brahmgupta had this surname.
DeleteSome folks give an etymology of gupta as "gope" --> "gupta" . Would that mean they came from gope/gwal background ?
"They were probably Kshatriyas and we have no reason to believe otherwise" ---> What's the definition of a 'kshatriya' ? I find varna very confusing :(.
Delete"only Brahmins had the liberty to take whatever occupation they want, although some Khsatriyas could take up trading and vaishyas could become soliders, however, only brahmins could be priests" ---> oh interesting. How was this rigid system enforced ? Was there a central police force which monitored every village and made sure that any person doesn't change his/her occupation ? I can understand that non-brahmins couldn't have become the priests of large temples and normal folks won't be able to become soldiers but somehow i thought that the artisan castes would have more fluidity. I mean if a neighbouring boy from a lohar(ironsmith) family decided to learn skill of pottery and the potter family was ok with it, would the "caste enforcing police force" come and beat both of them up :) ?
They were probably Kshatriyas and we have no reason to believe otherwise. In fact, it is time when the caste system became more rigid, and only Brahmins had the liberty to take whatever occupation they want, although some Khsatriyas could take up trading and vaishyas could become soliders, however, only brahmins could be priests."
DeleteIF they were Kshatriyas, any of their exploits would be preserved in oral legend. They were not until the British came along and militarized the entire Punjab.
Earlier each community had their rituals and customs and a priest was recruited from this community . Now the genius or malice of Brahmins was to monopolize priesthood for even these unorthodox, unVedic or even anti Vedic customs. This lead to only more destruction of whatever social cohesion was there. Let these castes select their own priests. That will lead to cooling of a lot of tensions.
One of the most impressive Rajputs in history is a guy who is most overlooked- Siyaka Paramara. He did something which hadnt been done in perhaps 4000 years of Indian history-a successful sacking of a Deccan capital by a north Indian Hindu king. Mauryas and Guptas made forays into southern India but during Mauryas south India and Deccan was rather undeveloped and political control largely ineffective. Samudragupta led a successful raid across the coast but didnt it was coastal invasion with defeating weak kingdoms along the Andhra strip. SG victory over the Pallavas has no corroborating evidence beside SGs own inscriptions. Pallavas were a very formidable adversary and is unlikely a military defeat would go unnoticed. A more likely scenario is that these kings probably sued for peace when faced by Samudraguptas might and he was satisfied with tribute, symbolic or othwerise and declared it a victory.
DeleteRashtrakutas were considered by Arabs as one of the dominant powers in the world. They managed to capture territor yfrom Nepal to Gujarat,Mewar and possibly even interfered in Sri Lankan politics. FOr centuries they were unbeatable until they met their match in the brilliant prince Siyaka Parmar who invaded Rashtrakuta core territory and burnt the capital to the ground from which the Rashtrakutas never recovered and their feudatories the (new) Chalukyas took over. Never did a north based Hindu empire achieve anything like. Though the Turkic Muslims were more successful in the Deccan though they too found subduing it quite a task.
Siyaka Parmar also defeated Huns.
DeletePratiharas has the best cavalry, Rashtrakutas the best infantry and Palas the best elephant core. Pratiharas had their hands full with Arabs whom they checked effectively. Rashtrakutas had a different dynamic who saw them only as traders and appointed them as governers in some of their regions. The West coast of southern India for this reason generally has a milder view of Islam as they saw them only as a mercantile rather than warrior community. Its possible Arabs flattered Rashtrakutas with those titles because of these friendly relations.Though they acknowledged the military might of Pratiharas. When the Hindu armies would encircle Multan, the Arabs would bring out an idol I think of Narasimha and hide behind threatening to smash it if the forces wouldnt withdraw. This way Multan remained in Muslim hands..to this day :(
Chalukyas were more invested in Gujarat and hence Arab intrusion was intolerable to them.
Mihir Bhoja firmly kept Arabs in check. Perhaps because of him, Islam is restriced to the Pakistan region to this day.
The era between the death of Harsh vardhan and conquests of Ghazni saw many brilliant victories of over Arabs, Turks and Tajiks even as Hindus fought one another. No wonder this is rushed through in history books in schools barely merited a few pages. Must be quite irritating for the JNU lot who designed the syllabus haha
DeleteNava-sahasanka-charita, an epic poem by the Paramara court poet Padmagupta, states that Siyaka defeated Huna princes, and turned their harems into a residence of widows.[6] The fragmentary Modi inscription also corroborates this victory of Siyaka, stating that he ruled the land "sprinkled over by the blood of the Hunas".[7] This Huna territory was probably located in the north-western part of Malwa. Siyaka might have defeated a successor of the Huna chief Jajjapa, who had been killed by the Chalukya feudatory Balavarman in 9th century.
This is from wikipedia. A tad ambiguous as its based on a poem praising him . These are prone to exagerration of course. But apparently there were some holdouts among Huns , much weakened and possibly Indianized but still considered outsiders. (It took Sakas many centuries to disappear into the Indian mainstream until British redsurrected them and made everyone a Scythian zombie LOL). They may have made incursions here and there from their territories.
It is curious that Paharis couldnt hold out against Muslims since their territory is conducive to guerilla warfare. What is odd about mountain people is they are extremes either very fierce- Coorgis, Marathas ,Uttarkhand Rajputs, Gurkhas or very placid- Kashmiris, Paharis ,Todas etc.
Khilji himself was rather cruel but was skilled administrator but later sultans were purely psychotics and didnt bother about their subjects at all. They viewed them as livestock to be exploited, taxed and sold into slavery if the circumstances merited.
Due to Ghazni and later Turks, the word Hindu became synonymous with slave. That reverberated centuries later in Persian poetry where the usage of the word Hindu meant slave well until the 17th century.
https://vediclibrary.in/public/storage/data/vedic_pdf/09272019090110_muslim_slave_system_in_medieval_india.pdf
Reading this book makes ones blood boil. It is well sourced and seems reliable. The most disturbing and fantastic sounding claims are apparently all true. I am not speaking of the Ferishta type 200,000 Hindus killed daily type poetics but more reliable statistics which are just as disturbing.
The one I do have with these books however they portray only one side indicating that Hindus were always on the losing side. Vijayanagar kings and even post Talikota minor kings paid back Muslims in their own coin and kidnapped Muslim women for use in their harems and destroyed mosques if required.
DeleteUnlike Hindutvadis, I prefer the history of Hinduism not one of pure victimhoods. Hindus were often free agents who fought back and engaged in eye for an eye and more.
And Baladitya who was like a Rajput finished "
ReplyDeleteI meant to say that that Baladitya along with Yashodharman were considered Rajputs by many historians even as term was in flux at the time.
oops brain freeze. Baladitya was a Gupta but Yashodharman was a Rajput.
DeleteYSV, what's origin of Gupta kings of gangetic plains ? Lot of people link them to bania probably because of the last name "gupta" but even brahmins like vishnugupta and brahmgupta had this surname.
ReplyDeleteSome folks give an etymology of gupta as "gope" --> "gupta" . Would that mean they came from gope/gwal background ?
That etymology is far fetched. Though there is these days an odd back projection of names to ancient ruling dynasties to try figure out their origin. Hence Guptas are considered Vaishya origin as the Gupta caste today is baniya. hahaha. Most inscriptions show that they are Kshatriya origin . They married into prestigious clans such as Vakatakas and Licchavis even when they were not too powerful. In contrast Krishnadeva Raya was rejected as a suitor by ORissa ruler Gajapati Raju king for his daughter as the former was not a proper Kshatriya but a satshudra.
There are some like Vincent Smith I think who believed that first Gupta chieftain was an Andhra mercenary but that claim is not taken seriously by scholars. Smith made some other odd pronouncements such Chitpavan Brahmins being the original Dravidians.
"Most inscriptions show that they are Kshatriya origin ." --- i thought there were no inscriptions where they wrote about their varna or jaati.
ReplyDelete"Smith made some other odd pronouncements such Chitpavan Brahmins being the original Dravidians" --- what made smith think so ?
- i thought there were no inscriptions where they wrote about their varna or jaati.
DeleteThey didnt state anything explicitly but only mentioned their gotra which was a a Brahmana gotra . However the issue is this- it they were Brahmins why didnt they proudly claim to be so. Another point is that they accepted joint coinage with Licchavi clan into which they intermarried, once a prestigious Kshatriya family is now considered vratya Kshatriya but still Kshatriya. Guptas generally sent their daughters to marry Brahmana princes. This was considered anuloma type of marriage as per smritis. Only once did a Gupta prince marry a Brahmin girl.
Kshatriyas can often adopt the gotra of Brahmin sages but other castes such as Vaishya cannot.
Using these circumstantial evidence, scholars deduce the caste of Guptas.
According to YSV, it's not fault of 76% SC, St and OBCs but less than 10% UCs are responsible for all ills don't mind that whatever little bit this country is standing is because of us UCs and our tax money.
ReplyDeleteHow do you define UCs? Reddy, Kammas, Vellalas and others are considered Satshudras not dwijas. And they tend to be the most prosperous. How rich are Brahmins and Kshatriyas in most part of India? Yes many of them have land holdings and are rentiers. And how much of this goes to the federal government.
DeleteThe upper castes who control levers of power also control the barriers of entry to the industry and those who dispense credit, loans, permissions etc. In order to grow an economy one needs to have low barriers of entry. Do you believe there is done in a meritocratic method? Look at the cozy relationship between the Gandhis and the Birlas/Tatas and Modi and Ambanis and Naidu /Lakadapati Rajagopal and various business consortiums. It is rather a joke that a politician has active interest in business while in office. In U.S thats a strict nono, Donald Trump for instance was required to relinquish his assets and control of his company before becoming PResident.
Do you realize the bulk of Indias economy is underground is because most people whether upper caste or lower caste have utter contempt and hatred for the system that despises and exploits(taxation) but gives them little or nothing in return.
"How do you define UCs? Reddy, Kammas, Vellalas and others are considered Satshudras not dwijas. " ---- @YSV, he is probably defining UCs based on constitutional categorization i.e any jaati which doesn't come in OBC, SC or ST is an UC. This way the patidars of gujarat, maratha of maharashtra, jats of haryana(jats are OBC in rajasthan though), kamma & reddy of andhra who all had an agricultural background become constitutional UC( General Category as we call in India). Most people, at least the urbanites , have now started organizing based on these new categories not the old ones(dwijas, non-dwijas).
Delete"According to YSV, it's not fault of 76% SC, St and OBCs but less than 10% UCs" ---- @A follower, Wait, who are the rest 14% ? Are you leaving out muslims here ? You will be surprised to find out that even muslims have jaati/biradari and a great chunk of muslim groups are in OBC. In fact, a muslim leader in bihar , Ali Anwar, had been campaigning to get Scheduled caste status for certain muslim biradaries for the last decade. As you know, per our laws, only a Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh can be an SC, Muslims and Christians can be not.
"Do you realize the bulk of Indias economy is underground is because most people whether upper caste or lower caste have utter contempt and hatred for the system that despises and exploits(taxation) but gives them little or nothing in return." ---- lol, true, as they say ~90% of the employment and economy is in informal sector.
Also, afaik, agricultural income is exempt from income taxes so i won't be surprised if many people claim their earnings from agricultural income and thus don't come in the income tax slab. I wonder if this is how the jaats/jutts of haryana and rajasthan became so prosperous in close to two generations.
*edit (typo above ) ---
Delete"this is how the jaats/jutts of haryana and *punjab* became so properous in close to two generations" .
I meant to say punjab but by mistake wrote rajasthan. Afaik, Rajasthani jaats are not that prosperous.
In fact, a muslim leader in bihar , Ali Anwar, had been campaigning to get Scheduled caste status for certain muslim biradaries for the last decade. As you know, per our laws, only a Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh can be an SC, Muslims and Christians can be not."
DeletePretty much everyone in AP laughs at the claim that 2% of the population is Christian. The real number is easily between 10 to 15%. The reality is that SCs who convert to Christianity dont wish to state on government certificates so as to avail of reservation in universities and government jobs. Upper caste converts like Kammas and Reddys also tend to underplay it as it is considered somewhat of a stigma. Hence YSR Reddy gives his children Hindu names such as Jagan Mohan Reddy even as this fellow recited the Psalms as he assumed his role as CM.
Re christian population is Andhra,read this pdf
Deletehttps://www.cpsindia.org/dl/Blogs/Blog%2023%20Ch-AP.pdf
Talks about how there has been continous decline in the population of christians in Andhra Pradesh and corresponding rise in the % SC in Andhra since 1971 . Through data, the paper argues that the "decline in christian population" has been entirely in the rural areas.
The pdf title is funny itself "What happened to the Christians of Andhra pradesh" .
"Upper caste converts like Kammas and Reddys also tend to underplay " --- Why did the kammas and reddys convert to christianity ? This doesn't make sense to me .
Deleteonly those Kammas and Reddys in Andhra tended to convert as most of the schools were started by missionaries and for some the religion stuck. You can find these guys in higher up positions even in some Mega churches in U.S.- the less said about those institutions the better.
DeleteIn Telangana due to Nizam rule the missionary activity was low . For some reason the nutcase cult Jehovahs Witness finds a lot of followers in Hyd though.
That study is a nice joke. What occurred is that people simply stopped reporting their Christian faith even as conversions increased almost exponentially.
DeleteOf course, that study is reporting only the official data and. They know what happened to the "christians" :).
DeleteVIncent Smith like many scholars even today believed that the Western coasts of India were Dravidian and all higher castes in that area from Sindh, Gujarat to Kerala are Dravidian. HJ Heras took it a step further and proclaimed Kashmiris and Punjabis as the original Dravidians.
ReplyDeleteThis was a common disease among most historians of that era. Pretty much every martial group was given a Scythian heritage. At one time Bishop Caldwell and others even believed Dravidians were of Scythian background. If not running around calling random people such as Nairs Scythians because they both worshipped snakes then it was Ten Tribes of Israel fiddle faddle. Todas ,Kashmiris, Coorgis and other people were given this lineage at one point.
DeleteThe Pallavas as actually Pahlavis and Chalukyas as Seleucids came from this lot. Their donkey etymologies would make even PN Oak and Vadakayil blush.
Apparently the Khasas of Uttarakhand and Nepal were of Scythian origins😂😂😂. It’s funny because the Telegus and Marathas are descendened of the people who actually defeated the Scythians. Chalukyas were seleucids 😂😂😂😂. Seriously I thought the Chalukyas were Huns (as Adolf Hoerne called them😂😂). These Brits are weirdos, although Jatt Sikhs may have SOME Scythian ancestry, but I highly doubt it.
DeleteI think there is some ground to the claim that the west coast was Dravidian. There are many place names in Maharashtra and Gujarat with Dravidian suffixes like -wadi. Also, Marathi and Gujarati show Dravidian substratum influence. Michael Witzel is of the opinion that Dravidian speakers entered India from the Northwest around the same time as Indo Aryan speakers and advanced south along the west coast.
DeleteI agree that the substratum of the Western regions is likely Dravidian as scholarship and Brahuis show. My point was that Vincent Smith uses this theory to make unfounded claims.
DeleteI would say the Banias and below are the Northern Dravidians, while the upper castes (Brahmins and Kshatriyas) are Indo Aryans.
Delete"Michael Witzel is of the opinion that Dravidian speakers entered India from the Northwest around the same time as Indo Aryan speakers and advanced south along the west coast." ---- @Prem Chand, doesn't michael witzel(or was it someone else) claim that munda folks were there in IVC region before IA migration ?
Delete"I would say the Banias and below are the Northern Dravidians, while the upper castes (Brahmins and Kshatriyas) are Indo Aryans." --- Where do agricultural castes like jats and rors figure in ? Jats have the highest steppe ancestry if you are implying bronze age steppe = indo aryans. Pahadi areas are still unsampled so i wait for more papers.
I wouldnt say there is much Dravidian DNA left in Northern India. Indus Valley was relatively depopulated when IAs became the dominant group and their migration to northern and southern India was disparate to leave a lasting impact.
DeleteJats migrated from Sindh so I would assume they some Dravidian ancestry.
Witzels Munda IVC hypothesis is a stretch.
Many historians used to make the assumption that in the north, Nagavamshi and Chandravamshi as well as vratyas were of Dravidian or mixed origin. But suryavamshis were IA.
DeleteThere could be something to it, apart from Cholas, in the south pretty much every dynasty claimed to be chandravamshi and those such as Nairs and Bants were Nagavamshi.
"I wouldnt say there is much Dravidian DNA left in Northern India. " --- How do you define "dravidian" DNA ? I would say this might not be the case. Moreover, i DON'T think the indus region would have suffered drastic decline in population.
DeleteThis was the last major genetic paper on the subcontinent
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6457/eaat7487.full
Full paper here @ https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/vagheesh/files/eaat7487.full_.pdf
I am trying to give a summary of what they did in the above paper to the best of my understanding.
(i) So, they basically extracted DNA from ancient samples from various sites belonging to different times.
Pre 2000 BCE IVC, they have been able to extract DNA from only 1 female sample and that from rakhigarhi.
However, they found some "anamolies" at various sites of shahr-i-sokhta(iran) and gonur with dates in the range 2600 BCE-2100 BCE. These are anamolies in the sense that they are slightly different from the usual samples at Shahr-i-Sokhta(iran) and gonur and these "anamolies" have slightly higher "moolnivasi" ancestry. Of course, what they take in as a stand-in for moolnivasi ancestry is a different matter but let's ingnore that. They assume that these anamolies are migrants from Indus valley and label them as Indus Peripheries(InPe).
(ii) Now, they found samples from swat valley (Pakistan) dated to 1300 BCE - CE era. Of course, they haven't got a single sample from a proper ivc site in india and pakistan but in these samples they notice an additional ancestry coming from a source similar to bronze age steppes. Thus is how they claim that the steppe ancestry has started coming in during the middle of second milleniun.
(iii) They try to model modern day indian jaatis and tribes using three ancestry sources -- Indus peripheries, Middle bronze age steppe and Andmanese onge(stand-in for moolnivasi ancestry) .
Except for Munda tribals, north-eastern tribals and siddis(who have african ancestry) , pretty much every group in india can be modelled as mixtures of the above the three ancestries in different proportions.
Here's the major thing - except for austroasiatic and possibly other central indian tribals not included in the study and north-eastern tribals, pretty much every indian jaati receives contribution from a source similar to Indus peripheries(the outliers at Shahr-i-Sokhta and gonur assumed to be migrants from ) ranging from 30%-65%%.
The highest contribution(roughly ~65% from these indian peripheries is found in Pattapa Kapus of andhra and Kalasha of hindu kush mountains lol. Kalasha have an additional 28% steppe ancestry which the pattapa kapus don't have.
So, we have some source which contributed roughly 60% of the ancestry to pattapa kapus and kalasha of hindu kush.
How do we explain this ?
Witzel Munda iVC hypothesis is dead . Now, IVC would have have been a heterogenous society so i shouldn't extrapolate from a single sample at rakhigarhi but that ~2400 BCE female was far different from the present day mundas. The closest living relatives of that sample would be some ethnic froup from south pakistan.
Even the indus peripheres are different from the mundas. Imo, Mundas are probably later migrants from south-east asia. They do retain south-east genetic signature .
Witzel's hypothesis (or was it someone else?) is that North IVC (Punjab) was Munda while the South(Sindh) was Dravidian. It certainly sounds more plausible than Asko Parpola's theory that IVC was fully Dravidian or Rajaram and Co's Vedic IVC delusions. BTW the spread of Indo-Aryan languages should not be taken as evidence that Aryans displaced the indigenous population. Rather, the incoming IA people spread their language and culture among the natives so that by the Vedic Age anyone performing Vedic sacrifices came to be known as Aryan, even if he spoke a non-IA language at home. Kind of like how we talk to each other in English, but none of us are from England. eg Sudas(from the famous Battle of Ten Kings) was a dasyu as his name implies, but he became an Arya by patronizing a Vedic seer and performing Vedic rituals.
DeleteAlso, Vedic Sanskrit had a Munda substratum which was composed mostly of agricultural terms. What was Munda doing in Punjab? Is this not convincing evidence that IVC people spoke a Munda language?
Delete"BTW the spread of Indo-Aryan languages should not be taken as evidence that Aryans displaced the indigenous population." --->
DeleteNo one is claiming that the IA displaced the natives, the current model being espoused by the harvard lab is that they mixed with the locals.
Re spreading their culture to natives and gradual adoption by the natives i.e elite dominance, for the elite dominance to work one should assume that the incoming IA were "elites". This is one way when a much larger population accepts the culture, language of a much smaller population (kind of how the subcontinent accepted the english language).
"Also, Vedic Sanskrit had a Munda substratum which was composed mostly of agricultural terms. " ----> Are we sure that it's a munda substratum and not something else. I think they called it "para-munda" . May be it was some other language that contributed to both IA and munda languages. Btw, did mundas have words for wheat,barley 100 years ago ?
I am pretty sure witzel will back down on this hypothesis because it was harvard genetics lab which published that major study and i am pretty sure that vagheesh narasimhan and david reich would have talked with their colleague, Michael Witzel.
"What was munda doing in punjab" ----> Nothing. People similar to modern day mundari speakers of east india weren't there in punjab.If some "para-munda" language was indeed there, the speakers of that language would have been very different from the present mundari speakers of eastern india which brings me to the point below.
"Is this not convincing evidence that IVC people spoke a Munda language?" ----> Afaik, the current consensus is the munda languages in india is the result of migration of austro-asiatic people from south-east asia who later mixed with the natives of eastern india.
This is also bolstered by the presence of decent proprtion of south-east asian ancestry present in mundari speakers of jharkhand, orissa which is very little to non-existent in the upper,middle caste populations of bihar.
(Paper https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-40399-8
For a lighter read -
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/science/scientists-solve-genetic-puzzle-surrounding-mundas/article26509093.ece)
Now, assume that the munda speakers arrived to eastern india and spread their language to north-western india.
How did they spread their language to punjab ? Two scenarios come to my mind.
(i) Massive migration of the mundari speakers to that area. This one seems extremely improbable because the single rakhigarhi sample and the "indus peripheries samples" are quite different from the mundari speakers. It's pretty weird that pretty much every indian group especially the western groups takes a decent proportion of ancestry from this "indus periphery" cluster with a good statistical fit but the mundari speakers don't. Of course, the sample size of the ancient cluster is too small but i am going to bet that more sampling of the area will not lead to finding a population cluster which is closer to the modern day mundari speakers.
(ii) Language change with minor migration like how the english did to the subcontinent. This one requires the mundari speakers to be the elites compared to the autochthonus population of north-western india just like english were . Somehow, this scenario seems extremely unlikely to me unless you give an evidence in favor of this proposal.
When it comes to IAs and agriculture, the timeline is crucial in determining any population movements or substratum. In the early stages of migration and settlement they were still pastoralists and there is no evidence to show that they used indigenous peoples as serfs at least in the western regions. IAs went for agriculture as a society after branching out of Sapta Sindhva. Most likely they encountered Munda in the Gangetic regions.
DeleteWe see IVC material culture from Western UP all the way down to Gujarat , Maharashtra Karnataka which suggests a population movement associated with Dravidian speakers. Though there is no IVC culture associated with Munda areas.
Having said all that, IVC as Dravidian is still unproven but it is the most likely scenario. Witzels dependence of these words alone to prove his hypothesis is problematic. Unless there is other evidence he offers. I am not that familiar with the Munda hypothesis of Witzel.
DeleteThe highest contribution(roughly ~65% from these indian peripheries is found in Pattapa Kapus of andhra and Kalasha of hindu kush mountains lol. Kalasha have an additional 28% steppe ancestry which the pattapa kapus don't have.
So, we have some source which contributed roughly 60% of the ancestry to pattapa kapus and kalasha of hindu kush."
Also you have a caste considered Dalit such as Pallars in Tamil Nadu which had higher steppe ancestry than Brahmins. Then you have the Jats and Ezhava common genetic markers.
This is why I am bit hesitant to go exclusively by genetics when it comes to population movements, ancestry and race. This is a science still in its infancy.
"This is a science still in its infancy." -- Absolutely true, may 10 more years and we will have better clarity.
Delete"Also you have a caste considered Dalit such as Pallars in Tamil Nadu which had higher steppe ancestry than Brahmins" ---- i don't know where you heard or read that but imo, this is not true. No caste in tamil nadu or kerala has more average steppe ancestry than tam brahms. Nairs come close though.
"Then you have the Jats and Ezhava common genetic markers." ---- Afaik, that was only based on Y-chromosome which is just a single tiny chromosome(it kinda points to some common patern gotras of jats and ezhavas) lol. My guess about the common marker which they found was Y-chromosome haplogroup L-M20.
The kalash and pattapa kapu thing i wrote was based on analysis of all 23 pairs of chromosomes .
"Most likely they encountered Munda in the Gangetic regions"
DeleteWell, the problem with that is that the substratum is found in Rig Veda Samhita, which was composed in Sapta Sindhava, not the Gangetic regions.
However I agree that the evidence for Munda IVC is pretty slim.
Delete"Well, the problem with that is that the substratum is found in Rig Veda Samhita, which was composed in Sapta Sindhava, not the Gangetic regions." --- Are we sure that the alleged substratum comes from some munda language ?
DeleteWhat about the supposed language isolates like nihali ? Has anyone done study on these language isolates before we run out of time and these folks completely lose their language ?
DeleteBtw, about the substratum in vedic sanskrit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratum_in_Vedic_Sanskrit
Quoting from the above -- " Another lost language is that of the Indus Valley Civilization, which Witzel initially labelled Para-Munda, but later the Kubhā-Vipāś substrate" .
Witzel did initially call it Para-Munda, because the substratum appears to be a prefixing language just like the Munda languages. I agree that more research must be done on all the language families and isolates in the subcontinent.
DeleteAre you sure it is the Samhitas were such implements dealing with agriculture are mentioned. As Samhitas are hymns to various dieties .Rg veda deals with worldly matters too but not these not likely to be found in the Samhitas
DeleteThe Hindutva cranks at Vijayvaani have this hot take on the invasion/migration scenario
"Michael Witzel’s Aryan Migration is deep rooted in Biblical studies. Migration is an intrinsic part of the Abrahamic faith. The migration story is key to Biblical ancestry: the history of the movements of the uprooted ‘People of God’ seeking safety, sanctuary and refuge. It narrates the migration of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, the movement of Abraham out of the Ur of the Chaldeans and continuation to other places, the exile of the Jews to Babylon, the movement of Elimelech and Naomi to Moab. Peter and Paul wrote letters to churches of migrants. Witzel currently endeavours to draft and weave this West Asian migration history into the foundation of ancient Indian studies contextualizing the Aryans."
Where do they come up with this rubbish. As if migration and traditions of persecution and salvation are unique to Biblical culture. You had the migration of Brahmins of Brahmavarta to establish Vedic culture, the Parasumaric aspect of settling Brahmins from Rajasthan along the Konkan coast and Kerala. There was a lot of migration in the Vijayanagar era. Not to mention the maritime exploits of Bengal and Tamils. There was also a two migration . The Pallavas even had a Cambodian king at one point.
HJ Heras speculated that conservative Brahmin authors who didnt care for foreign travels acctually edited the exploits of Balarama and Krishna to fit them into India. He actually belived they travelled upto Europe!
That part is not quite believable(pending serious evidence in the literature) but it is true Indian society became a tad insular and risk averse and hence landed feudal society who saw income not from pastoralism or maritime trade but purely from agriculture would not prefer to dwell on those aspects.
I think the agricultural terminology is not from the Samhitas. However, Munda substrate is not restricted to agriculture, apparently the names of some tribes and cheiftains like Bilbutha are possible Munda words.
DeleteWhat surprises me about the Hindutvadis is how well-read they are about Abrahamic religions, but wouldn't pick up a single book written by an Indology scholar. The result is their embarrassing claims like there being no such thing as an Indo-European language family.
"the Parasumaric aspect of settling Brahmins from Rajasthan " --- Aah, associatimg saraswati river with ghaghar-hakra channel :) ?
Delete"The Pallavas even had a Cambodian king at one point." --- Very interesting.
"HJ Heras speculated that conservative Brahmin authors who didnt care for foreign travels acctually edited the exploits of Balarama and Krishna to fit them into India. He actually belived they travelled upto Europe!" --- Interesting, it reminds me of this article
https://www.bibhudevmisra.com/2014/03/hercules-and-balarama-symbolic-and.html
"it is true Indian society became a tad insular and risk averse and hence landed feudal society who saw income not from pastoralism or maritime trade " --- Very good point.
@Tim Drake
DeleteDo you think Saraswati is the River Helmand in Afghanistan? Witzel thinks it sometimes means Helmand and sometimes the Milky Way
Delete"Do you think Saraswati is the River Helmand in Afghanistan? Witzel thinks it sometimes means Helmand and sometimes the Milky Way"
The Vedas using the same nouns to describe different things in different context. So the seven sages can be actual sages and the Ursa major in different verses.
The geography of the Rg Veda doesnt quite correspond to Afghanistan. Atleast its more realistic than Rajesh Kocchars attempt to place Rama's Ayodhya in Afghanistan!
Forgot to add, Saraswati only refers to Helmand in the older sections of RV when the Vedic people still had contact with Afghanistan. They seem to have later named Ghaggar-Hakra as Saraswati.
DeleteLOL I have read Rajesh Kochchar's book on the Vedic people, but I had no idea that he places Ayodhya in Afghanistan. Ayodhya may have been somewhere in UP. The history of modern Ayodhya can only be traced back to the Gupta period.
Rajesh Kocchars crank views on Ayodhya aside, he was right about early Vedic people being more aggressive and warlike than the Persians. Persians were initially a somewhat pacific people due to their Ahuras being rather gentle. They were probably militirized when under the Assyrian yoke.
Delete"VIncent Smith like many scholars even today believed that the Western coasts of India were Dravidian and all higher castes in that area from Sindh, Gujarat to Kerala are Dravidian. " ---- What does dravidian mean here ? Linguistic identity ? Well, if we see genetics, the western ghats of india, there is indeed a very high frequency of a Y-chromosome haplogroup , L-M20 , along western ghats of india and also in some parts of kashmir and Hindu kush.
ReplyDeletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20
This Y-haplogroup is veey rare in the gangetic plains and pretty mych absent in the gangetic plains dwijas.
*Y-chromosome is only passed from father to son. It's a very small part of the total genome though.