Monday, October 14, 2013

Indian Philo Semitism and Judaic Indophilia

I had originally posted this in dissention as a guest blogger more than two years ago. Not exactly fresh material I will come up with something soon!

India is the only country in the world which did not persecute its Jewish residents (miniscule as they may have been).Israel enjoys its highest approval rating in India despite the official stance of the Left leaning Indian government.
What ties bind these disparate people, Middle Eastern and South Asian? Monotheists and idol worshippers, of minimalist Abrahamic and extensive pantheon of Vedic beliefs, historical wanderers and notoriously introverted xenophobes.
One of the common links is of course anti Muslim prejudice, though not without good reason. Both Hindus and Jews have been subject to Muslim rule and dhimmi status in the past and Islamic terrorism to the present day. But so did Russia (with there is also a close bond, but the anti Muslim thing is not the main factor),Greece and the Balkan states so why no special relationship with them. These countries don’t capture the Indian imagination like Israel’s stunning victory 1967 war, the raid of Entebbe and various Mossad operations. Again Indians delight in anyone rubbing Muslim noses in the ground but there is something else more primal that I figure most Indians ,particularly males are loath to admit.
Both Hindus are Jews were considered unmanly ,timid merchants known for haggling more than quarreling and quarreling than fighting. The European Jews who founded the nation of Israel were aware that the modern citizens of the future state would have to do away with such attributes and set about luring the intellentsia and their commercial classes from their drawing rooms and markets into the tough, unforgiving landscape of 19th century Palestine to work on the land till it bloomed and till your hands bled and fight the Arabs and the British for what was given to you by God till you make THEM bleed. This combination of brain and brawn created a …ahem New Man as it were in the Holy Land which enabled to survive and thrive even when numerically outnumbered by hostile Arabs in 1948,1967,1973,1st and 2nd intifada and now presently with the information warfare, demoralization strategy via Iran and the Western media and delegitimization and divestment campaign (through European and American universities and think tanks).
It is also interesting to note that both Hindu nationalism and Zionism despite their associations with ancient and profoundly religious people are actually secular ideologies many of whose founders were agnostics if not atheists. Ever since the defeat? of Marathas atPanipat, there had a been a crisis in Hindu manhood. Last breath of Hindu defiance was seen in the War of Independence against the British in 1857 but even this was probably wasKoenraad Elst called “Hindus wielding the sword of Islam”.
or in this case the sword of Islam on one side and sword of the British on the other (Hindus fighting the British was united under the Mughal King Bahadur Shah Zafar II while many more Hindus and Sikhs were actually fighting for the British).For a brief period hot-headed middle class Brahmins from Bengal and Maharashtra had taken up the revolutionary cause by spreading terror. Some took matters even further and set up shop in London where managed to assassinate a commissioner and coordinate other revolutionary activities in India.
These individuals were particularly scornful of the current state of Hindu manhood. They exhorted youth use to cease their bookish habits and take up physical exercises and martial arts. They particularly loathed the vegetarianism prevalent in society and promoting the eating of meat and animal sacrifices to get Hindus to quell their squeamishness about shedding blood. They also attempted to undo the efforts of the Western historians to present Hindu history as a long series of defeats. Indeed as they could claim, no other nation had so many invasion attempts thwarted starting with the Greeks, Persians, Scythians, Yue Chi (precursors of the Huns), Huns, Arabs, Turks, Mughals, Pushtoons, Persians, French, Portuguese, Dutch and their current struggle against the British.
However this movement was soon disbanded and arrested (Savarkar was taken to the notorious Kalapani).After his release he never participated in any anti-British activity but directed his ire towards Muslims and what he perceived to be their collaborators such as the pacific Muslim appeaser Gandhi(he was implicated in Gandhi’s assassination due to his association with the killer-at the time comparisons have been to Jewish extremist Yigal Amir who assonated Yitzhak Rabin-whom the former considered a Muslim appeaser to whom he handed over traditional Jewish land as Gandhi portioned Hindu land and handed it over to Muslims). Not surprisingly they were most impressed with the Zionist experiment in Israel and encouraged Hindus to follow their example.
So there you have it, Indian support for Israel is really the emasculated, testosterone starved, meat deprived ,Muslim loathing pacific, Hindu males yearning for a revival of Hindu masculinity when the latter was feared as violent,brave,honorable and stalwart.
From the Jewish side, it had been mostly one of gratitude and affection than admiration. For the simple fact that Jews had thrived in India since the Babylonian exile ,Roman destruction of the temple and various tricklings thereafter. They had become kings, generals, famous actresses and businessman.
The average young Israeli can’t wait to finish his mandatory military service so he can set off for India- mostly Goa and curiously, northern Hindu pilgrimage centers! It is significant most of the partnerships and agreement between India and Israel are mostly regarding military hardware(Israel recently surpassed Russia as India’s top arms supplier) and support for Indian army’s clampdown on Kashmir and other counter terror measures. Again we see the military cooperation and similar pursuits to be considered quite natural and organic by both parties.
It is worth recalling that during the November 2008 Mumbai terror , it caused Indians some pain when a former Israeli commando criticized the rescue efforts of his Indian counterparts in the siege of the Jewish centre.
And rightly so, it was terribly executed. Indian forces were caught with their pants down , there was no central command and if so, it was absolutely clueless. Many Indians realized that their forces were not up to par for highly mobile, precision operations which hostage rescue mission calls for ,yet this downbeat assessment of their capabilities really stung particularly as it was coming from Israel.
Despite these contemporary collaborations and ancient associations no matter how strong will not cause the Indian government to vocally and unabashedly support Israel in the U.N as U.S has. And they may not do so until they actually become more like the Israelis-tough ,resilient ,unapologetic,resourceful,defiant and brave.

216 comments:

  1. today is Dusshera or dasara that celebrating victory of Sri Ram. there is growing
    minority of people who have began to question Rams motive and character there
    is growing fascination to turn ravana into a hero of the epic . Charltans like milin patel have already maligned characters of Ramayana . in his latest he says quote
    "कदा परिणतो बुद्ध्या वयसा चामरप्रभः।
    अभ्युपैष्यति धर्मज्ञस्त्रिवर्ष इव मां ललन्।।2.43.16।।
    There is direct evidence of Kaushalya's sexual relationship with Rama."

    these are indeed signs of kaliyuga where black is the new white ,in ecosystem of the world, here is where people like Vadakyil are needed as deterrent against foolish charlatans like patel

    ReplyDelete
  2. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  3. @sonam u have jumped to opinion based on fictional account of gumnami baba , according to dr subramanya swamy it was fake planted story . if gumanmi baba was Bose then he should known about cannibalism in rababul tunnels, since he was in Vietnam according anuj dhar .I saw a video dr subramanya says that Bose was starved to death by Stalin in Siberia . I will not jump into conclusion so hastily .

    ReplyDelete
  4. ysv jam and others check the interview of Rajeev malhotra https://youtu.be/Sv6tQF8

    when I saw complete interview I realised captain has plagiarised many works of
    "Rajeev malhotra" .capts article of naxals came from book BREAKING INDIA
    all the list of people including Kavita Krishnan, Shehla Rashid, BDutt, Sagarika ghosh etc were originally listed by Rajeev malhotra as anti nationals but capt
    later picked up and made it into his own revelations . he has mirrored lot of idea from Rajeev malhotra like defending fake gurus like gurmeet baba , nityananda ashram bapu etc which he claims are targeted by Christian ngos , this angle was Rajeev malhotras idea .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Regarding naxals, I will have more detailed post on it later but long story short- I think the Naxal phenoomenon has a lot to with the Indian army sticking to the outmoded martial race theory. Men from AP and Telengana are heavily over represented in Naxals followed by Jharkand and Bengal - all of which undercontribute to the Indian army.
      If young men are not given an outlet for their aggression, they will take it out somehwere- what better target than to the country which undervalues their martial abilities? The worst thing you can do to any community which has considerable martial past is to declare them non martial. It is bad enough that the British did so and disarmed a lot of people in AP/Telengana- Robert Caldwell noted how even peasants would walk around with weapons, but adding insult to injury is the North centric Indian army carrying on business as usual mostly due to incompetence ,inertia and lethargy rather than any organized and conscious bias against south Indians or Bengalis in particular. But the damage done is considerable. The BJP doesnt help matters with its idiotic beef politics, jallikattu ban and raging against worship of Mahavali.

      Delete
    2. My point is that the national parties such as BJP and Congress are very north centric and as such as held in contempt by those with strong regional identities. The cultural ignorance of BJP in particular with regard to southern India is astounding which generates considerable ill will in souther India against them. Those in Kerala,Telengana and AP for instance were warming up to BJP until this beef and Mahavali fiascoes.

      The stupidity of BJP will end up breaking India as much as the naxalites, missionaries and what have you. Perhaps Sanghi bootlickers Vadakayil and Malhotra should discuss that.

      Delete
    3. I dont think you need Christian NGOs for convince babas to behave like dogs in heat. It is a laughable claim that missionaries are responsible for the low character of these babas. I mean have you seen the low IQ movies of this clown Ram Rahim? Such a guy will end up exposed doing stupid shit at some point. It is only a matter of time.

      Delete
    4. Since the BJP has come to power and proceeded with its thoroughly short sighted cultural chauvinism and ignorance of regional subcultures, I am shocked at how much closer I have to Iniyavels mode of thinking regarding the northern Indian attack on southern culture. I never had reason to think this way a few years ago. Even Pawan Kalyan, brother of patriotic Chiranjeevi was talking about secession! And AP is probably most patriotic in southern India!Another national integration success story from the BJP! Give yourself a round of applause gentlemen, bravo...bra fucking vo..to paraphrase Nicholas Cage from Face Off!
      (couldnt find the meme!)

      Delete
    5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkvDzYhKedM

      And here it is :)

      Delete
    6. ysv I agree with few points that rural ap telangana youth need an outlet to release frustration . but they should not become a PAWN FOR A PEOPLE WITH HIDDEN AGENDA . Ysv I have heard the above claims that you r making that
      they "victim of Atrocities BY INDIAN ARMY ," SIMLIAR CLAIMS HAVE BEEN MADE
      BY KAMISHMIRI SPERATISTS AND JIHADHISTS WE SHOULD NOT GO IN TO THAT NARRTIVE
      WTIHOUT FURTHER PROOF , THIS IS LIKE BEING APOLOGIST TO CRIME COMMITED BY NAXALISM, LIKE SAYING HE HAVE GOOD NAXALS AND BAD NAXALS WHICH I DONT AGREE.

      Delete
    7. ysv many fake babas are sex addicts so they present themselves as easy target to people who know their weakness ashram lands are worth crores
      of rupees these fake babas are also into land grabbing, black money donations flow into ashram they are also into Hawla business etc so they are sitting ducks to anyone who know their weakness

      Delete
    8. This is certainly not a defense of naxalism or the Maoist ideology that underpins it. You know me better than that. My point is we have to look at the underlying causes rather than simply treating the symptoms of shooting them dead. Yes the Chinese have active interest in sabotaging India more than any Christian missionary(which has never been proven). Ironically the Chinese have ditched Maoism themselves but see it as a useful tool to torment their adversaries.

      My position is simple- end rural exploitation by the city folks and 90% of law and order problems will be solved not to mention ending overcrowding of cities and the associated medical and infrastructure burdens.

      In the same vein, the zamindar(another "wonderful legacy" of the British) structure has to be reform thoroughly to have a more egalitarian and productive landscape.

      I dont see the Indian army with rose tinted glasses, the leftists over state and exagerrate the excesses of the Indian army for sure. But I dont think they behave honorably in the north eastern regions at all (where there is not so much media spotlight). I know intelligence officers who were posted there and they can tell you some horror stories about the cruelty of the Indian army. Mind you these guys are not your JNU types but quite patriotic with sympathies for Hindutva.

      Delete
    9. ysv ur above point reminds of Vedanta group bauxite mining in orissa which faced lot Opposition by local tribe. like wise TATAS had to shutdown their opertation tata nano cars in sillguri

      Delete
    10. Some of the actions of these Indian corporations make me sound like Arundhati Roy or Medha Patkar which makes me want to vomit but as I say regarding the captain even a broken clock can be right twice a day. Same applies to Patkar etc.

      TATAs set up factories there with the help of the government who use eminent domain to simply bulldoze farmland and forests which tribals and peasants depend on and recieve measly or zero compensation. All the while they are "rewarded" with polluted rivers and an infertile soil after they leave. Who in good conscience can support these actions.
      Once again Im the kind of guy whose says that mother nature should occasionally take a beating for the sake of development which is why I support fracking but those who suffer from it should be justly compensated.

      Delete
    11. ysv also agree that above point of north chauvinism being played out against southerners .its because southerners are not united in their voice against it. language is also a barrier with southerners ,

      "I know intelligence officers who were posted there and they can tell you some horror stories about the cruelty of the Indian army"
      IF BOTH SIDES MAKE SIMILAR CLAIMS THEN THEN WHOSE NARRATIVE SHOULD WE BELIEVE .BUT NAXALISM AS WHOLE IS DANGEROUS SINCE MANY OF THESE RURAL YOUTHS BECOME PAWNS TO FOREIGN ACTORS WHO HAVE DIFFERENT AGENDA

      Delete
    12. I dont see a need for caps. The truth is not black and white. Neither is the Indian army evil,nor are they are completely composed of honest patriotic folks. The Indian army does not actively set out to promote these atrocities but when they do occur there is a culture of cover up rather than of accountability which just makes things worse.

      If you dont want the youth to be pawns then reform your country first rather than pointing fingers at enemies.Enemies will do what they do. Dont give them the opportunity to do it.

      Eisenhower for example saw the sad plight of African Americans as a national security issue and started the civil rights movement on that view. He believed that communists could inflitrate and radicalize them to create a lasting headache against America. In the end, both an Ike and the communists were partially successful in their efforts.

      Indian leaders are too dimwitted and short sighted to learn from Eisenhower.

      Delete
    13. ysv as earlier mentioned i use caps to highlight my points so it doesn't get misrepresented.

      my solution to naxalism is govt should take initiative to rehabilitate naxals those who wish to surrender should b given protection and job opportunity should b given .this also applies to kashmiri youth

      we certainly dont need Kavita Krishnan, Shehla Rashid, BDutt, Sagarika ghosh etc to b a mouth piece of naxals. these whatsapp ladies group
      have different agenda they certainly act as agent of foreign power,

      Delete
    14. "regarding youth needing an outlet for aggression" --- just allow them to mingle with opposite sex lol. That will calm most of them

      Delete
    15. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    16. sure why not turn them into sex addicts

      Delete
    17. tim drake you taking issue very light manner

      Delete
    18. @rohit patel,I said allowing them to mingle not sponsor free jaunts to Thailand. By that logic, does every married guy turns into a sex addict? I see cops in UP beating guys up just for approaching women and calling them perverts,rapists etc.
      Bjp is now clearly acting as an authoritarian government now.

      Delete
    19. To be clear I never said the youth of Telengana were victims of atrocities of the Indian army. The Indian army never had a reason to be in Telegana since the ouster of the Nizam in 1948.

      I said that Indian army does not actively recruit outside its regular haunts in Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, UP for the most part. Now what happens is these guys start getting a superiority complex and through nepotism and sectarian connections just ended up becoming a club for individuals of said groups where others are made to feel unwelcome.

      This is not an atrocity for sure but certainly a failing of the Indian army where certain select communities are over represented in the army for no other reason besides simply continuing the British policy of martial races.

      This is why I say in many ways India is built not to serve Indians but the British and their loyal servants. NS Rajaram (back when he wasnt completely loony) made a valid point when he contrasted the American graduates of Harvard and Indian graduates of St Stephens and Doon school. The former is prepared to take risks by venturing his own reputation and money in the high octane world of politics while th latter are happy to be backbenchers and kingmakers only.

      I also have to ask why the heck does the Indian Navy still have the St George(patron saint of England) cross as its standard?

      Indians are simply living in mansion not built to their specifications or for their interests but to someone else's.

      If the British would return to India to rule tomorrow, the transfer of power would be absolutely seamless. All the institutions and beureucracy will fit them like a glove-that is not supposed to be a good thing.

      Delete
    20. ysv I agree to the part
      " Indians are simply living in mansion not built to their specifications or for their interests but to someone else's.
      If the British would return to India to rule tomorrow, the transfer of power would be absolutely seamless. All the institutions and beureucracy will fit them like a glove-that is not supposed to be a good thing."

      THERE HAS BEEN A THEORY THAT INDIA HAS NOT YET GAINED INDPENDENCE
      IT WAS AN ACT OF "TRANSFER OF POWER" Article 147 of INDIAN PENAL CODE says England can even today capture India. Article-147 mentions 5 items — — IIA-1947, GoIA-1935 and Privy Council, amendments in IIA-1947 and amendments in GoIA-1935 wrt interpretation of constitution.
      Art-147 clearly says that supreme court judges will have to FOLLOW these five items.
      We are still under The control of British parliament and British supreme Court.Article-147 of Constitution says that Supreme judges have to obey British Court. black coats worn by lawyers has not changed
      Recently I was hearing the recording of Rajiv Dixit, a very famous nationalist .. i heard he said, in the Transfer of power agreement 1947, which was signed between Nehru-Mountbatten for Indian-Independence.. It is mention that, India will be member of commonwealth dominion for 99 years and no law made by British would be amenable or removable.. ? Not only that, Queen of UK is head of state above president of INDIA by rank…. such that, she do not require Passport / Visa to enter in INDIA…… The final decision of Independence from Dominion status would be decided after the or during the end of this 99 years of agreement. ?…..that means in 2046 the British government can again takeover India don’t know it is true or not but 2046 will be a very surprising/shocking year for many many Indians.


      I WILL GIVE U LINK TO RAJEEV DIXIT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PilLrO3R0Ms

      Delete
    21. ysv before u call me crazy pls note iam not the source iam quoting from source

      if u ask my personal opinion on it Iam just as curious as what will happen on 2046 when its 99yrs .lol...

      Delete
    22. THoroughly enjoyed reading the discussions and good points raised :)

      I believe in terms of national outlook ,cong fared better than bjp,because in cong u could see people like Chidambaram from south or similar personalities from east take up important positions up in delhi lobby.infact if we remove the monarchy of gandhi family which Nehru and Indira set up ,we can still have a good panIndia nationalist party in the form of INC.bjp ,on the contrary,had always been biased towards central india,because of hilariously foolish thinking prevalent in Sangh parivar . the hypocrisy is so much deep rooted,that kerala ,which gives the most dedicated swayamsevaks from the rank and file of RSS,doesnt have a representation in the core sangh parivar lobby! its like u kick the person who works hardest for u.on this front ,INC has always been better than bjp.But the current Modi dispensation is trying to change things,for example we are seeing Nirmala Sitaraman or venkaiah Naidu,or Kiren Rijiju from the north eastern part,get important portfolios.This thin was unimaginable in the Vajpayee-Advani bjp.but to be fair to bjp,the hard reality is that since they never focussed on the south or east,they are now severely short of capable talents from these places,so much that they cant even project a strong CM face in TN,Kerala,or bengal.While the INC has ruined its egalitarian outlook solely trying to project a worthless Rahul Gandhi.

      Indian Army as an org and RSS follow similar thought patterns,with respect to regional bias.

      BJP goofed up with the Mahavali controversy.this is what amazes me ,tbh.BJP is officially the largest party in the world in terms of enrolled cadre strength.So it should have the best feedback mechanism on cultural issues.yet it has the worst.I must admit that initially I was in favour of a pan-India beef ban,but then realised that Hindus in many parts of india do eat beef regularly,Kerala and north-east in particular,so a pan india beef ban cannot be enforced.the problem with bjp is that it talks of things,and does nothing concrete.It is talking of an illusive ram mandir for 25 years since 1991,and it will talk of beef ban for the next 25 years also,without doing anything constructive.electorally,bjp is still the party i would vote though,solely beause of lack of options in indian polity at this moment,and also because of the reform oriented mindset I am seeing in Modi.

      the naxal movement,though flawed in its mode of work,still had noble intentions at its core.I do risk sounding a pro naxalite or commie with this opinion of mine,but to be fair,the original naxal leaders who had planned the whole philosophy,themselves had the best in mind for the peasantry or labourer class of people.However as i said,their ways of achieving the same were flawed .but naxalism is a pretty complex topic,it had multiple layers of societal phenomena being integrated under it.and naxals are till date a well respected and admired group of people in the interior villages of Chattisgarh and jharkhand.hence the sociology associated with naxalism is a pretty interesting one.

      Delete
    23. regarding the padmavati fiasco,SLB wont allow his investment to rot,hence he will surely cut scenes which are demeaning to the original Rani Padmini.meanwhile,he is just trying to gain some negative attention which will help him earn more revenue once the movie is released :) however i completely support the protests on padmavati,sans the vandalism.its like showing a movie on nirbhaya,in which she had an affair with her rapist.however,distortion of history had been done even in the past in bollywood and on a gross level,with movies like Jodha akbar or even worse,Mangal Pandey! absolute freedom should not be bestowed upon artists when it comes to historical movies.because such freedom will always go against the hindu cultural history ,and never against abrahamics.

      Delete
    24. at this stage,I would rather love to see a group or ideology upholding Hindu civilizational values and showing the same zeal as of Nazalites from 1970s.maybe that can be termed a Hindu Naxal/vedic Communist philosophy.infact the original naxal movements was almost solely a hindu attempt across india,though they were not explicitly identifying themselves to be a Hindu group as such.

      Delete
    25. Interestingly the proto Naxals were the peasants of the Telengana rebellions. To say it was communist is a bit reductive. To be sure , there were left leaning at the same there was a good dose of ethno linguistic regionalism due to Telugus being discriminated in the Asaf Jah regime. These naxals had thoroughly made short work of the Razakars were on the verge on marching into Hyderabad city where the plan was to decapitate the Nizam. They may well have succeeding but ironically the Indian army intervened!

      Delete
    26. the hypocrisy is so much deep rooted,that kerala ,which gives the most dedicated swayamsevaks from the rank and file of RSS,doesnt have a representation in the core sangh parivar lobby! "

      During 1992 Ayodhya, the swayamsevaks including the most militant were disproportionately Telugu. A good deal of violence against Muslims in Ayodhya was attributed to a communication gap where the hostile Telugu swayamsevaks who didnt understand Hindi or Urdu thought Muslims were abusing them when they were actually pleading with them.
      Even many RSS pracharaks were Telugus or Kannadas with Marathized name, one example is Devarajulu who became Deoras.

      Delete
    27. re British takeover in 2046

      This seems a bit fantastic to believe . However when India is in the Commonwealth it is symbolically paying obeisance to U.K if not literally. Why India, a country which prided itself on anti colonialist instincts is in the commonwealth and recieved aid from U.K to this day is a question which no politician doesnt even want to raise much less answer.

      So basically we are a reverse of Hong Kong LOL. Anyway even if this provision is there, implementation is another thing. I cant imagine such a thing would go smoothly with the Indian populace or the rank and file of the Indian army just because its law. Since when have we been so law abiding LOL. I doubt we will start with that scenario. Anyhow Britain may soon have to deal with its own union with the Scottish indepedence not too far in the future, they have serious problems closer to home rather dream of reconstituting lost glory

      Delete
    28. @JAM

      re south Indians and INC

      Never mind the INC. Look at the success story of INA. It was disproportionately Tamil and this during the considerable anti Hindu and anti Indian Dravidian propaganda(it would reach its zenith in the 50s -70s). Subhash Chandra Bose's efforts were a publicity miracles. Maravars in particular turned up in droves to register as well as provide considerable financial support through various back channels(I dunno if Chettiar banks in Burma and elsewhere helped, perhaps Iniyavel can weigh in).
      Even today Chandra Bose, Subhas Chandra is a popular in southern districts of TN.

      Goes without saying there was no leader with Netajis vision and caliber so the Tamils drifted away from the national mainstream.

      Delete
    29. ysv re British takeover in 2046

      I know it sounds fantastic ,but if u realise British gave independence to
      India and Africa because they lost economically , didn't have military strength to control rebellion, even in present scenario British cannot claim India, as it will turn Into volatile situation.

      IN AUSTRALIA QUEEN OF UK IS REGARDED AS GOVERNOR GENRAL

      IN CANDA Technically speaking, Queen Elizabeth is the Sovereign of the parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy of Canada

      I can list countries like Jamaica Antigua Bahamas Barbados Belize grenade which have queen as their titular head of the state

      in case of India prime minister of India cannot stop queen of uk from entering India ,doesn't require permission from government of India

      Indian judiciary still are required to quote past judgment based on English laws ,

      India is regarded as" Dominion state", where Pakistan is smaller dominion of India ,even if India wants to claim Pakistan or Kashmir its not possible if UK doesn't wish it to happen, as its still under the clause of COMMON WEALTH OF THE NATIONS

      if scenario is favourable where UK is economically militarily strong then Its possible for" British takeover in 2046" otherwise INDIA REMAINS INDEPENDENT NATIONS LOL...

      Delete
    30. @YSV

      ""During 1992 Ayodhya, the swayamsevaks including the most militant were disproportionately Telugu. A good deal of violence against Muslims in Ayodhya was attributed to a communication gap where the hostile Telugu swayamsevaks who didnt understand Hindi or Urdu thought Muslims were abusing them when they were actually pleading with them.
      Even many RSS pracharaks were Telugus or Kannadas with Marathized name, one example is Devarajulu who became Deoras."" ---- Thanks for this info,this also goes on to reinforce the point that Sangh Parivar does have a contempt for the south.infact it is today that Sangh needs a second Savarkar ,to remodel it again.
      This is my personal opinion,South Indian Hinduism can form the best cultural Hindutva model ,instead of the central indian one which is so deeply admired by Sangh and RSS.South Indian ethnicities and races are instinctively martial in their ways,because of the thousands of years of fighting they have gone through.Similar fighting hindu spirit can be seen way up in the north east(which sadly is a neglected zone,both in mainstream indian history and in overall polity as well).Infact after the mughals failed to conquer north east india ,despite several attempts for a few centuries starting from delhi sultanate itself ,and gave up,a rumour had spread among muslim generals of mughal army that the Kamakhya Mandir of Assam has some black magic powers,for which this part could not be captured by any muslim ruler :) Just like the south,even the north east can be a strong hindutva bastion,but not with the current Sangh Parivar,or its defunct policies.For one,we have to accept that hindu people in some parts of south india and in the north east eat beef,and still they remain strong dedicated hindutva warriors.So beef is not a point of judgement at all.in contrast,bengali hindus dont touch beef and dont even like someone bringing beef into their locality(the elite commie circle of kolkata is a different one,they eat beef,even proudly,but they form absolute minority of the population) . But even then Bengal is not suitable for sangh hindutva,not in the current form that the latter try to enforce .Hence what i am trying to point out is that beef or no beef is not a litmus for hindutva test.Let us judge hindus by the cultural resilience they put up.but the top brass of sangh,the policy makers,are pretty narrow people,hence they use a small set of binary questions for judging the cultural outlook of a whole populace,even if the said population give them loyal dedicated fighters on ground (like Telegu or malayalee hindus,for example).

      Its sad to see that TN is going this way .Tamils are a population I deeply respect,in terms of cultural contribution to the Hindu civilization,my guess is that probably Tamil Hindus have contributed the most (though cultural contribution is a subjective matter).Even as recent as the INA phenomenon,its the tamil hindus who formed the most dedicated warrior group there also.And its even worse that a Hindutva outfit working on indian soil neglects TN hinduism.Tamil Hindus have always responded emphatically to the call for nationalism(i guess Hindu nationalism would be more appropiate here),even when Swami Vivekananda approached them,and they have shown their zeal later on in INA.So all they need is a good leader,who would guide them to glory,sadly all they are getting is DMK/ADMK.

      Delete
    31. on british take over in 2046,first let britain save herself from being taken over by islam :) if at all britain takes india over by the 1st half of 21st century,it may well be an islamic takeover of india,and not the earlier british one we had witnessed.But that would not be an easy one by any means,unless indians actively cooperate or remain docile to the takeover.

      that the indian navy still continues with british emblems and symbolisms,is in itself a disgrace for us Indians.infact the navy vehemently opposes any alteration to status quo on this aspect.one more thing that can be noticed is that the indian armed forces as an establishment take pride in their BIA achievements,which in some cases went against the INA or the local indic population.for example ,in post independence india,the indian army should not have been celebrating its glories in wars of ww1 or ww2,but till date that tradition continues.this is largely because we had an Anglophile PM nehru at that time,who was not interested in filtering british influences .

      India choosing to remain part of commonwealth of nations might well be a diplomatic decision,since india of 1947 was not the india that is today.But standing in the present time,I think its good for the honour of india and her martyr freedom fighters that we pull off from the Commonwealth,even though that is a mere symbolic gesture,still certain forms of symbolism are necessary.

      Delete
    32. jam i have to add that when u point out Islam u also need to add other minorities like xitians , jains , parsis etc .they don't get represented as threat specially xitians are silent killers who do their evangelical
      conversion when disaster hits ,Islam is big problem in India but certainly there are others who just as venomous as Islam .parsis may be educated influential but their forefathers sided with British


      i feel all the above points like naxal ,regionalism , religion etc which got discussed are very much interconnected , if we have to "save India"
      we need to fight , minority issues, leftist academics ,
      self loathing Hindus greedy politicians mafia , atheist Hindus , ignorant mass ,this fight must take a form of "counter revolution "

      i also feel modi is more of a business minded leader than a messiah for Hindus we only hear the word VIKASS AND ALL JHUMLAS (FALSE PROMISE) thrown around election speech

      YOGI ADITYANATH i feel must be groomed to power as next Pm of India
      he has already started ayodhya temple work , i feel has courage to take Hindu cause



      Delete
    33. in my opinion we need a reformation which happened in Europe it prevented further islamisation of European countries we need to purge out some radical elements which are threat to our state

      in case of India there still an identity crisis with minority , they don't identify themselves as Indians . we still refer Hindus as Indians ,Hindus themselves have sub divided into many regionals centric , caste line
      like dalits etc , then there linguistic divide , gender divide. if anyone tries to rises above all the problem he needs to face external threat from left academics mafia , political bureaucracy and lastly his own willpower to fight

      a Hindu today is a utterly spineless entity who will show some courage when fighting within community or regional wars, but shies away when confronted by larger threats , there is lack of unity and awareness among Hindu community

      naxal movement is connected to regionalism has no, noble thoughts behind other than to fragment Indian population. even if they achieve so called objectives they cannot take national stage and represent all the people of India , i fear they will implode within due to factional wars within naxal ranks , i don't think a communists from Bengal can reconcile ideological difference with that of Kerala

      so if British were to demand Indian territory conditions today are being made ideal ,so that a strong Hindu ideological person will not be allowed to rise by these forces so at large we remain docile and ignorant

      Delete
    34. Good points once again I agree with it completely. when Mughals occupied India there was never a freedom struggle movement to get rid of Muslim invasion instead many hindu royals allied with people like Akbar ,

      shah jahan etc for their own cause , it was later that maharana pratap
      ranjit singh , shivaji maharaj finally weakened Mughal power,

      history repeats itself once again during British rule where marathas instead of fighting against British ally themselves to for their further expansion this also include many royals like scindias, even the great
      jhansi rani laxmibai was British ally and later turned against them for her
      political reason not for patriotic reason ,

      my point is Indians have not really learnt lesson of their past if we read modern narrative Hindu genocide by Muslim king allaudin khilji mohamud ghori ghazni Aurangzeb tipu sultan etc It raises one important
      question
      why was there a lack of awareness about genocide among Hindus during that period ?

      why was there no united fight against Muslim conversion by Hindu kings?

      where was the so called Punjabi, Martha ,Rajput ,jatts tamil ,Andhra mallu pride during Mughal rule and British rule ? why did these martial race allowed the Indian woman to be raped by invading Muslim army .instead all these regional power allied with invaders only later they realised
      the concept of one nation and became aware of the colonial statues

      we cannot change the history , we cannot take revenge against the Muslim
      community for the crimes committed by their ancestors In the past .

      if there was genuine concern about Hindu community Rss bjp should done something about kashmiri pandits , who suffered atrocities by Muslims terrorist. they are still refugee in our own country , even today modi govt has not to rehabilitate back to Kashmir

      we cannot demonise a community along communal lines also we should not compromise Hindu rights

      so called atrocity narrative of Hindu genocide only suits politicians ulterior motives so that they can divide and create vote banks
      divert attention to corruption by the poltical party in power

      latest example is padmavati film by bhansali most people have forgotten that there was old film by same tile in tamil , and hindi u can Google it.

      there was no fight by any Rajput community back then to ban the film.
      today so called karni sena have sprung up to defend their pride .political party today make gave its backing to ban the film in their state so that they can appeal to their vote bank

      this my friends is sad state of Indians and Hindu today.






      Delete
    35. "we cannot change the history , we cannot take revenge against the Muslim
      community for the crimes committed by their ancestors In the past " --- most of the present Muslim community are descendents of lower caste Hindus who converted to Islam . If anything,they should be the one to take revenge against the higher class Hindus.One can already see a certain section of people have started hating the hindus for the treatment they received for 2000 years,you can check out the hate on quora itself.Hindus divided themselves into various castes and then subcastes ,hence are responsible for their misery. Even in 21st century,the Gujarat supposed "kingmaker" is asking for extra constitutional reservation. No wonder the smart ones leave india and we get foreign NGOs educating local kids in English language so their in their words these kids can attain the best universities abroad.

      Delete
    36. tim drake sadly the above narrative of dalits vs Brahmins was created by British today all the regional parties support it for their vote bank .politics .this also the case of dravida and Aryan invasion theory all
      this is made to further fragment Hindus and turn them Into self loathing atheist


      sadly what u have pointed about about Gujarat is true

      this fellow hardik patel comes out of no where becomes the head of pattidar agitation and now supporting congress , time and again many people like old fasting goat like anna hazare comes out of the wood and result is Rookie like kejriwal wins Delhi election

      Delete
    37. superb points raised in ur discussion on this thread .

      On the historical hindu genocide issue,it needs to be analysed in a proper way.Firstly ,we need to understand that the vast body of medieval literature from which we get info about genocides,arent backed by population data,census or such things.What i wish to convey is that for example,roughly 3000 people died in godhra riots,as per official stats,while unofficial estimates put the number even upto 20000(official estimates on such issues in india are always scaled down,so unofficial ones are more reliable actually) .but atleast we can get a rough estimate,and we can say that at most some 20-30000 people died.However in the medieval era,when a literature or poetic narrative says that this particular muslim king killed a lakh hindus ,the figures have no backing.For sure muslim kings werent epitomes of secularism,the delhi sultanate was particularly unhappy with hindu existence.However all the genocide theories that are coming up in recent times,claiming akbar killed 60000 hindu sannyasis or Aurungzeb killed millions of hindus,cannot be confirmed or cross-checked.Surely they killed some,but the extent is debatable,and another misconception prevalent in hindutva circles is the nature of conversion to islam.Not all of the conversions were because of invasions of muslim rulers with swords,much of the conversion took place due to complex caste fragmentations of hindu society.in order to suppress this bit of history,hindutva lobby has imagined a new proposition,that caste system is a british construct,to weaken hindu community internally(Vadakayil also has been a proponent of this ) :)

      Hence it is better that when we are discussing the rise of islamic fundamentalism in india with the help of political power play,we keep medieval,premodern india aloof.Modern india is a complex entity in itself,it needs solutions garnered to the present composition of problems.Cursing aurungzeb to an eternity of hell wont help modern hinduism :) on this aspect,Savarkar had understood the problem most clearly.He wished to use the strong british administration and stable governmental structure to the benefit of indian hindu community.The extent of his success is debatable,infact he wasnt successful,however his intentions were fair and futuristic.

      Delete
    38. "tim drake sadly the above narrative of dalits vs Brahmins was created by British" --- are you sure of this? There have been various scriptures which talk of birth based Varna system and I am not talking about manusmriti here. Please don't say they are poison injected like Captain. Even today,caste based discrimination is rampant in some states. Sure it might have been fueled by the Brits but it was always there (however some historians do over exaggerate ).
      Re kejriwal and Gujarat elections, at least kejru fought on a narrative of ending corruption/black money which was a noble cause and united a lot of people but this hardik Patel dude simply wants reservation as he is oppressed .

      Delete
    39. "tim drake sadly the above narrative of dalits vs Brahmins was created by British" --- are you sure of this? There have been various scriptures which talk of birth based Varna system and I am not talking about manusmriti here. Please don't say they are poison injected like Captain. Even today,caste based discrimination is rampant in some states. Sure it might have been fueled by the Brits but it was always there (however some historians do over exaggerate ).
      Re kejriwal and Gujarat elections, at least kejru fought on a narrative of ending corruption/black money which was a noble cause and united a lot of people but this hardik Patel dude simply wants reservation as he is oppressed .

      Delete
    40. "Good points once again I agree with it completely. when Mughals occupied India there was never a freedom struggle movement to get rid of Muslim invasion instead many hindu royals allied with people like Akbar ,

      shah jahan etc for their own cause , it was later that maharana pratap
      ranjit singh , shivaji maharaj finally weakened Mughal power, "


      You are very confused. On one hand you say that there was never a freedom movement and then you mention SHivaji, Ranjit Singh, Maharan Pratap etc. Which is it?

      What about Rana Sangha who almost single handedly turned Babur away from north India or Krishnadevaraya who so terrified Babur that Babur simply sought his friendship.

      "history repeats itself once again during British rule where marathas instead of fighting against British ally themselves to for their further expansion this also include many royals like scindias, even the great
      jhansi rani laxmibai was British ally and later turned against them for her
      political reason not for patriotic reason , "

      The Marathas had a few good leaders in the beginning but failed to civilize their population. Yes I use the word civilize because most of the Marathas were recruited from peasants and shepherds who had a habit of being mercenaries historically. I am talking even before Islam , for 7 centuries Kannadigas and Andhra based dynasties occupied Maharashtra and Marathas were happy to be their hired soliders mostly as light cavalry.
      You can inclulcate values if you have a centralized polity with all the attendant institutions of pathashalas, temples, fine arts, literature etc. I ask you where are all these in Maharashtra culture. The great temples were made by Rashtrakutas,Yadavas and Chalukyas who were not Maratha despite comical attempts by Maratha nationalists to declare them so.
      Fact of the matter is Maratha contribution to the arts is mostly the drama and lavani dances. Even Hindustani classical music found a home not in Maharashtra to which it was culturally compitable butt in Karnataka. All this hyper Hindu nationalists of latter Maharashtrians is really Maratha nationalism in disguise. Which explains by Thackeray was against South Indian and Gujj Hindus but anti Islam as well.

      "my point is Indians have not really learnt lesson of their past if we read modern narrative Hindu genocide by Muslim king allaudin khilji mohamud ghori ghazni Aurangzeb tipu sultan etc It raises one important "

      Genocides by Muslim rulers have been overstated by Hindutva because they the accounts of Muslim propagandists of the age literally. I mean really who can kill 1lakh Hindus per day for two months or some such fantastic number attributed to Bahmanis. Especially when Vijayanagar was right next door.

      All of those you mention did massacre a great deal of Hindus to be sure. But the numbers are hard to come by. And you are talking about less than a dozen top murderers in the last 1000 years and these too restricted to certain sections of India.

      It is not in the interest of rulers to massacre scores of productive people when they can be paying taxes like jizya.

      "question
      why was there a lack of awareness about genocide among Hindus during that period ?

      why was there no united fight against Muslim conversion by Hindu kings?"

      Question: why are you attributing modern notion of nationalism and Hindu solidarity to the past. Just as Europe was Christian but fragmented among warring states so were Hindus.

      "where was the so called Punjabi, Martha ,Rajput ,jat





      Delete
    41. "where was the so called Punjabi, Martha ,Rajput ,jatts tamil ,Andhra mallu pride during Mughal rule and British rule ?"

      Telugu pride remained intact to crush the Muslim presence in Andhra even after defeats by Malik Kafur and help establish Vijayanagar which not only crushed the Madurai Sultanate prevented Islamic imperialism for 200 years. Even after Talikota the Nayaks and Polygars routinely defeated Golkonda and Bijapur armies

      Mallu pride humbled Tipu Sultan well before Wellington(Mallus also defeated Wellington later)

      Punjabi was first on the chopping block and hence last to be liberated. Same with Jatts. Tamils such as Ariyanatha Mudaliar established the polygar system which generated considerable headaches for later Muslim rulers.

      I dont rate Rajputs too highly so I wont offer a defence of them.

      " why did these martial race allowed the Indian woman to be raped by invading Muslim army .instead all these regional power allied with invaders only later they realised
      the concept of one nation and became aware of the colonial statues"

      None of these communities took kindly to women being raped or temples smashed. In general Muslims realized that as long as they didnt interfere in these matters ,and if taxation wasnt excessive Hindus wouldnt rebel. Such psychology is not unique to Hindus.



      "we cannot change the history , we cannot take revenge against the Muslim
      community for the crimes committed by their ancestors In the past . "

      No but we dont have to get in the way of karma. Which is what the captain is doing when he rails agains the drone strikes in Pakistan. I mean for gods sake even Pakis dont protest so passionately. I dont bother myself when Muslims are killed around the world, I dont encourage it neither do I lose sleep over it.

      "if there was genuine concern about Hindu community Rss bjp should done something about kashmiri pandits , who suffered atrocities by Muslims terrorist. they are still refugee in our own country , even today modi govt has not to rehabilitate back to Kashmir "

      We have lost he PR war of Kashmir and the world considers it an occupied state. Hence any Kashmiri Pandit re entering Kashmir is seen as tool of the Indian government which is a headache Indian government wished to avoid.
      PVNR saved Kashmir and later Musharaff under American pressure reigned in the jihadis but Bajpayee and Manmohan Singh squandered all those gains.

      we cannot demonise a community along communal lines also we should not compromise Hindu rights

      "so called atrocity narrative of Hindu genocide only suits politicians ulterior motives so that they can divide and create vote banks
      divert attention to corruption by the poltical party in power"

      This is hilarious. You have spent this entire post using inflammatory language against Hindus for not stopping genocide and rape of their women ala Bal Thackeray and Sadhvi Rithamabra(in the aftermath of 1993 bomb blasts, he distributed womens bangles to those karsevaks and Sainiks who didnt kill Muslims) and now you are pleeing for communal amity.

      Really you are a very confused man.

      "latest example is padmavati film by bhansali most people have forgotten that there was old film by same tile in tamil , and hindi u can Google it.

      there was no fight by any Rajput community back then to ban the film.
      today so called karni sena have sprung up to defend their pride .political party today make gave its backing to ban the film in their state so that they can appeal to their vote bank
      "

      Can we atleast pretend that India is a secular democracy and banning things left and right is not the right thing. Seems to be Rajputs raised quite a ruckus and feel rather emboldened. I cant imagine such a thing in the 80s and the 1990s when Bollywood and the media were firmly of the Islamic mafia who tar any opposition to glorification of Muslim tyrants as communal.

      "this my friends is sad state of Indians and Hindu today."

      Your commentary isnt worth the bits its written on.

      Delete
    42. ysv sadly u dissected my entire points didn't get large point which I made

      u have defended Punjabi, Rajput , mallu etc on individual basis not on collective basis as a community this sadly reflects attitude of regionality
      u and I both know there was never coordinated unity between all these regional entity

      sadly the point I wanted to make got dissected into many to defend and justify ur debate

      Delete
    43. I ask you where are all these in Maharashtra culture. The great temples were made by Rashtrakutas,Yadavas and Chalukyas who were not Maratha despite comical attempts by Maratha nationalists to declare them so.
      Fact of the matter is Maratha contribution to the arts is mostly the drama and lavani dances. Even Hindustani classical music found a home not in Maharashtra to which it was culturally compitable butt in Karnataka. All this hyper Hindu nationalists of latter Maharashtrians is really Maratha nationalism in disguise. Which explains by Thackeray was against South Indian and Gujj Hindus but anti Islam as well.


      YSV: You are so right about Maharashtra. The temples in Maharashtra lack the grandeur of the south. Most are not well-maintained and clean. Also what's the reason for Maharastrians worshipping so many saints like Akkalkot Maharaj, Gajanan Maharaj, Shirdi Sai Baba etc. Also many are followers of Datta Sampraday and often go on pilgrimages to Datta peethas like Pithapuram in AP, Ganagapur, Kuravpur, Narsobawadi, Bababudangiri etc. YSV, what do you think of Datta Sampradaya?

      Delete

    44. Dattareya Natha tradition is responsible for Raja Yoga as per Kunal Singh

      ..... Hatha Yoga
      and Raja Yoga that they are different stages of the same thing. Yogic
      ascetics have given their understanding of yoga and attributed it to the
      deity of yoga. Devotees of Shakti have long since married them to
      understand their practices and bring them to society proper from the jungles
      and the mountains. The reason why Shiva falls in love with Shakti as per
      legend is because he is fascinated by the explanative theory propounded by
      the Shakti cult, the Samkhya. This is the reason why Shiva and Shakti
      "sport" on mountains for thousands of years developing new ideas. Thus
      though the development of the conscious practice was best done by yogis, its
      understanding in the realm of the material world was best developed by the
      theorists of Samkhya, or the Shakti devotees.



      The tradition of all the Nathas comes from Dattatreya who speaks of the
      highest principles of Raja Yoga propounded in the courts of the ancient King
      Janaka himself according to the text Tripura Rahasya. This is evident as
      the Nathas of Nepal worship Dattatreya. Dattatreya quotes Janaka. And
      within the courts of Janaka supposedly was also developed the entire concept
      of reincarnation of the self.


      Delete
    45. I believe Marathis worship so many saints for the same reason that many Tamils worship movie stars. In Maratha culture there was no centralized religion compared to other parts of India so they were become sant followers. In Dravidiian Tamil Nadu, the leaders did away with gods and priests but instead instituting themselves as objects of worship through cinema.


      Interestingly the founder of the Mahanubhava sect in Maharashtra around 1300 warned followers not to go into in Andhra and Kannada regions as those areas were considered wicked.
      At various points in time, there seem to have been attempts by many to tie in a mode of worship or a select diety to an ethno linguistic group such as Lingayats and Kannada and Jhulelal in Sindhi and Kali in Bengal but this didnt seem to stick as Hindus from other regions did not observe that this diety to belongs to Telugus, Tamils,Punjabis or Bengalis therefore I should avoid it. Even a dislike of the ethnic group doesnt prevent other Hindus from visiting temples in that region. It is here on the cultural and religous level that Vedic/Agama religion has succeeded even as it wasnt able to unify India as a nation state.

      Delete
    46. Wikipedia mentions the presence of Datta worship in Telengana. I havent seen this on a large scale anyway. And there doesnt seem to be evidence of its presence in the medieval or ancient era. Probably due to some cross pollination about a 100 years ago with Dehastha Brahmins. Dehashtha Brahmins are common to Telangana, Karnataka and Maharashtra. The founder of RSS was from a family of Telugu speaking Dehasthas from Karnataka who moved to Nagpur.

      Delete

    47. oops I meant Hegdewars family was from Telengana, not Karnataka.

      https://books.google.ae/books?id=iVsfVOTUnYEC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=deshastha+brahmin+telugu&source=bl&ots=SkY6l3ZoDS&sig=zrHl5SwCmq-cysRQtCRsqqVOU40&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia4ODY7dfXAhUJWBQKHSCNByU4ChDoAQgrMAE#v=onepage&q=deshastha%20brahmin%20telugu&f=false

      Delete
  5. my biggest issue with BUDDA IS HE DOESNT GIVE CREDIT TO THE SOURCE .I DONT HAVE
    PROBLEM IF HE QOUTES FROM SOURCE LIKE RAJEEV MALHOTRA , BUT SOURCE MUST B QOUTED AND CREDITED .CAPTIAN TRIES TO CONVIENCE HIS FOLLOWERS THAT IT WAS HIS OWN DIVINE
    REVALATION THAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO B A GIFTED GENIUS ." BUT WE KNOW THE EMPEROR IS NAKED".

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You had followers like Enigma who defended the captains plagiarism by stating that it wasnt such a big deal because either way he dispenses knowledge. Hey Enigma, why dont I rob your house and dispense with the monies to the poor ? Whether it was your money or mine- whats the difference, either way the poor are being looked after!

      Delete
  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  7. bjp doesn't represent Hinduism its just a political party with rss affiliation
    Eating or banning beef doesn't necessarily make it a tool of oppression .
    these are goalposts of a leftist argument who always make it a point to divide
    issues based on gender ,race , religion, equality .who always play a
    victimhood card to divert issues. if we don't trust our own army then
    who should we depend on to defend nation.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What a nonsense argument. BJP bans beef on the rationale that it is protecting the heritage of Hinduism.I really dont care what leftists believe as various subcultures of India such as Assam and Kerala have nothing to do with the Left but are a part of Hindu culture whether you like them or not.

      Left is guilty of all those things you say but then so is the BJP.

      Regarding army men, its not a matter of trust or distrust but I have to ask the uncomfortable question regarding their competency and the extant of their corruption-which is very considerable. For some reason we place them on a very high pedestal and think they can do no wrong. While in fact being in the army is one of the cushiest jobs imaginable. The chances of being sent to the border and dying are miniscule. I have much greater respect for the paramilitary and STF of various states who routinely have to combat danger as opposed to the main body of the army.
      Also I have to wonder how many sign up due to patriotism vs various benefits they recieve. Never mind the corruption and indifference of the military beureaucracy that families of fallen soldiers rarely get their due.

      Delete
    2. ysv I would like to add , army competency can be evaluated by their performance in recent battles, but we have only pak wars as benchmark
      Indian army is not tested on a global scenario .but I am certainly against
      idea that we should enlist our soldiers to NATO, UN security forces
      instead of gaining experience I suspect our solider will b used as cannon fodder for western wars. corruption in army doesn't get attention as in case politics , we should setup independent judiciary system for evaluation of corruption in army .

      whole right and left ideology is the game in end is to confuse people so that real actors who in the shadow profit from the conflict , example LAWYERS OF OPPOSITE CAMPS ARE USUALLY IN CAHOOTS .. THEY DECIDE WHO WILL WIN FOR A PRICE.SUPER RICH AND MIGHTY LAWYERS "KNOW" THE JUDGE.

      u will be surprised to know many of the left leaning academics have different opinions in private .they support such causes for their own personal greed

      bjp uses issues such as beef ban etc for their own vote bank ,in private they might believe opposite example like fadnavis rijju . parikkar who inspite being bjp man has not banned beef in goa ,

      congress uses minority appeasement for their vote bank ,in private they may have different opnions


      my point is we should not to get caught in blame game we should reconcile difference in ideology by "open dialogue" not demonise opposite camps for their beliefs. otherwise it will break India in to many regional powers




      Delete

    3. "congress uses minority appeasement for their vote bank ,in private they may have different opnions"

      Sanjeev Sabhlok said that in his experience most politicians irrespective of political party, right or left, disliked Muslims.

      In the movie Raajneeti, this was hinted at with Nana Patekar as a Congress minister mocking Muslims behind their back rather after kissing their ass LOL

      Delete
    4. "Sanjeev Sabhlok said that in his experience ....." --- I hope Mr sabhlok is not saying that for political gains.

      Delete
    5. tim drake why do u always ruin a meaning full thread if u want to
      make comical jokes,plzz go back to capts blog for entertainment.

      u have never added to meaning full conversation on any subjects

      ysv blog is not a parody site , jam , sonam , premchand, ysv , anu
      we discus many important topics and current events

      Delete
    6. " jam , sonam , premchand, ysv , anu
      we discus many important topics and current events" - Oh, you forgot to add milin patel's contributions :).

      Delete
    7. @chatbot

      Lets not take ourselves too seriously. Relax. There is always room for levity. I wouldnt mind doing a parody blog actually. I considered doing a parody of the captains blog but who can take tell the difference between the parody and actual thing with regard to him so I scrapped it

      Delete
    8. @timdrake

      Sanjeev Sabhlok's statements may be self serving but I dont think he is exagerrating too much.
      Anyhow my position is that as long as the highly unlikeable and cranky Sabhlok is at the helm, his party will go absolutely nowhere. Whether in India, America, Europe or elsewhere, people dont vote for ideas primarily but on emotion which they wish to project on the candidate, if he is uncharismatic then might as well forget about it.
      I cant imagine Sabhlok elected even as a local community leader much less PM

      Delete
  8. ysv jam and others this will b a lengthy thread about vd savarkar and his connections to Gandhi assassination and flaw of idea Hindus needing to learn "the art of war"

    Madan Lal Dhingra was an Indian revolutionary freedom fighter. While studying in England, he assassinated Sir William Hutt Curzon Wyllie, a British official, hailed as one of the first acts of revolution Dhingra came into contact with noted Indian independence & political activists Vinayak Damodar Savarkar and Shyamji Krishna Varma, who were impressed by Dhingra's perseverance and intense patriotism which turned his focus to the freedom struggle.During this period, Savarkar, Dhingra and other student activists were enraged by the execution of freedom fighters such as Khudiram Bose, Kanhai Lal Dutt, Satinder Pal and Pandit Kanshi Ram in India. It is this event that is attributed by many historians as having led Savarkar and Dhingra to exact direct revenge upon the British.The following are said to be Madan Lal Dhingra's last words, just before he died at the gallows:
    "I believe that a nation held down by foreign bayonets is in a perpetual state of war. Since open battle is rendered impossible to a disarmed race, I attacked by surprise. Since guns were denied to me I drew forth my pistol and fired. Poor in wealth and intellect, a son like myself has nothing else to offer to the mother but his own blood. And so I have sacrificed the same on her altar. The only lesson required in India at present is to learn how to die, and the only way to teach it is by dying ourselves. My only prayer to God is that I may be re-born of the same mother and I may re-die in the same sacred cause till the cause is successful. Vande Mataram!"
    Lloyd George expressed to Winston Churchill his highest admiration of Dhingra's attitude as a patriot.
    The British suspected Savarkar’s involvement, but had no concrete evidence against him

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. EARLY DAYS OF SAVARKAR

      Savarkar, that too from a tender age. Only a boy of 12, Savarkar, leading a pack of his schoolmates, attacked a mosque in the aftermath of the Hindu-Muslim riots in Bombay and Pune in 1894-95. Holding back the Muslim boys of the village using “knives, pins and foot rulers”, Savarkar and his friends mounted their attack, “showering stones on the mosque, shattering its windows and tiles”. Recollecting the incident, he later wrote, “We vandalised the mosque to our heart’s content and raised the flag of our bravery on it.” When the news of Hindus killing Muslims in the riots and its aftermath reached him, little Savarkar and his friends “would dance with joy”.

      The sectarian nature of Savarkar’s social and political thinking not only bred in him a deep-rooted resentment against Muslims but also clouded his understanding of historical events, leading him to perceive the 1857 War of Indian Independence as a retaliation by Hindus and Muslims against Christianity, in response to Britain’s efforts to Christianise India.

      The sepoys, according to Savarkar, were the primary targets in this mission to spread Christianity in India. “[I]f any Sepoy accepted the Christian religion he was praised loudly and treated honourably; and this Sepoy was promoted in the ranks and his salary increased, in the face of the superior merits of the other Sepoys!”

      In 1941, taking advantage of the World War, Bose had begun raising an army to fight the British by recruiting Indian prisoners of war from the British army held by the Axis powers – efforts which eventually culminated in his invasion of British India with the help of the Japanese military. During this period, addressing the Hindu Mahasabha session at Bhagalpur in 1941, Savarkar told his followers:
      “..it must be noted that Japan’s entry into the war has exposed us directly and immediately to the attack by Britain’s enemies…Hindu Mahasabhaites must, therefore, rouse Hindus especially in the provinces of Bengal and Assam as effectively as possible to enter the military forces of all arms without losing a single minute.”
      In reciprocation, the British commander-in-chief, “expressed his grateful appreciation of the lead given by Barrister Savarkar in exhorting the Hindus to join the forces of the land with a view to defend India from enemy attacks,” according to Hindu Mahasabha archives perused by Shamsul Islam.



      When the Congress leaders were arrested during the Quit India movement, the Hindu Mahasabha, still presided over by Savarkar, entered into a coalition with the Muslim League to run the governments in Sindh and Bengal – a move Savarkar justified as “practical politics” which calls for “advance through reasonable compromises”.
      After all, in spite of the deeply-held conviction by Savarkar and his party that the Muslims – whose holy land lies in a foreign country – cannot be regarded as Indian nationals, the Hindu Mahasabha nevertheless had a great deal in common with the Muslim League. Both parties made no contribution to the struggle for independence from the colonising empire and both were communal parties whose ideologies antagonised the prospects of India remaining undivided after independence.
      Even after the Sindh assembly passed a resolution in 1943 demanding that Pakistan be carved out of India as a separate state for the Muslims, the Mahasabha ministers continued to hold their positions in the coalition government. Not entirely surprising, given that Savarkar had put forth his two-nation theory “a clear sixteen years before the Muslim League embraced the idea of the Hindus and the Muslims as two distinctive nations and demanded the division of India.” And when India was eventually partitioned, Savarkar blamed Gandhi for allowing Pakistan to break away from India, an accusation that stoked the fires of hatred against Gandhi among many of his close devotees, including his ‘lieutenant’ – Nathuram Godse.

      Delete
    2. ASSASINATION OF GANDHI

      In the Thirties, Savarkar helped create the anti-Muslim, military-oriented Hindu Mahasabha organization. He was the president of the group from 1937-44. During World War II, he urged young Indians to join the British in the war effort so they could be “re-born into a martial race” and the war would then “Hinduise all politics and militarize Hindudom.” (ibid, p. 52)
      In 1944, Gandhi was about to hold talks with Indian Muslim leader Muhammed Ali Jinnah. A group of young men, including Nathuram Godse, vowed to stop the meeting. They picketed Gandhi’s ashram gates, attempting to block him from attending the meeting.
      When the police arrived, they found a knife over a half-foot long concealed on one of the men. (ibid) When the officer asked the man if he had planned on becoming a martyr, he replied that no, that would only happen when Gandhi was assassinated.
      The officer then said, why not leave it to the leaders to settle the dispute? Let Savarkar come and do the job. To which the potential assailant responded, this would be to great an honor for Gandhi. He then pointed to a follower of Savakar next to him and said he would “be quite enough for the purpose.” (ibid, p. 52) The man he was pointing to was Nathuram Godse, the future murderer of Gandhi.

      Gandhi was bitterly opposed to the partition. Savarkar was also opposed to it, because he understood that since Hindus were far more numerous in India, they would end up ruling anyway. Gandhi understood this complaint, which is why he was willing to offer the prime ministership of a united India to the Moslem leader Muhammed Ali Jinnah. This attempt met with resistance on all sides: the British, Jawaharlal Nehru, and Jinnah himself, who ended up advocating the two-state plan.
      When the partition came, rioting, violence and bloodshed broke out all over India. Gandhi decided to go to centers of the strife in order to try and stop it. He first went to Bengal, where he decided to walk the entire area of the region. He began this ritual every morning at 7:30. (Douglass, p. 55) He was effective. Moslems came forward to protect Hindu minorities and Hindus now returned to their homes.
      Gandhi then went to Calcutta and Delhi where the reverse was happening: Hindus were in the majority and they were massacring Moslems. But while Gandhi was doing this, his co-leaders in the India National Congress, Nehru and Sardar Patel, decided to go along with the partition. This allowed them to take the lead in the formation of a post-independence Hindu India. And, in fact, Nehru became the first Prime Minister of India.
      Gandhi now wired Jinnah that he was going to Pakistan to show that Hindus and Moslems could live together. The go-between for this last-ditch attempt was a man named Shaheed Suhrawardy, a Moslem whom Gandhi had converted to non-violence.

      Delete
    3. CONTD....
      Around this time, the plot to kill Gandhi now went into overdrive. Nathuram Godse and Narayan Apte met with an arms dealer named Digambar Badge. (ibid, p. 59) Godse was the editor and Apte the publisher of a newspaper that pushed Savarkar’s ideas. The date they picked for Gandhi’s murder was Jan. 20, 1948. Badge accompanied Godse and Apte on a visit to Savarkar. The mastermind told them, “Return after being successful.” (ibid, p. 70)
      This assassination attempt failed because two of the seven conspirators got cold feet at the last minute and failed to start the fusillade after a bomb went off. (ibid, p. 74) One of the plotters, Madanlal Pahwa, was apprehended. He led the police to a room in a hotel where Godse and Apte had held their planning session with others.


      Pahwa had even talked about the plot to his professor, J. C. Jain, a week before. Jain did not take it seriously until he read about the attempt and Pahwa’s arrest in the papers. He got in contact with the premier and the home minister of Bombay, B. G. Kher and Morarji Desai. He told them the bombing was part of what “appeared to be a big conspiracy.” (ibid, p. 76)
      Home Minister Desai, after hearing Jain’s story, said he felt that Savarkar was behind the plot. He then passed on this information to deputy police commissioner J. D. Nagarvala, and ordered him to arrest one of the plotters, Vishnu Karkare, since there was an outstanding warrant on him for another case. Desai also ordered surveillance on Savarkar and shared the information with Sardar Patel, who was in charge of the national government’s security apparatus.
      And here begins one of the most puzzling aspects of this case. With all this information being circulated in state, local and national law enforcement circles, how did the plot still succeed?


      Douglass tries to point out certain decisions that allowed it to go forward. Patel asked Gandhi to search every person coming to his prayer meetings. Gandhi, of course, refused. Patel then resigned Gandhi “to whatever Providence might have in store.”
      Patel was later heavily criticized on this point in the Indian Parliament, because although Gandhi vetoed the searches, he was amenable to other measures. About them he said, “They only believe that this police guard will save my life. Hence let them do whatever they like.” (ibid, p. 78)
      Another puzzling point about the interim between the first attempt and the actual assassination is that both the Bombay and Delhi police had information identifying key participants in the conspiracy. (Gandhi was shot in New Delhi.)

      Further, both police departments were in touch with each other. Yet, as Douglass writes, “for nine days the assassins moved about freely, until three of them, Apte, Godse, and Karkare then killed Gandhi.” (ibid, pgs. 78-79)


      At the trial, Savarkar was not convicted. And it was for the same reason as with the Wyllie murder. Godse and Apte protected him as they were led to the gallows. Although Badge testified that there were meetings between Savarkar and the plotters before the murder, his testimony stood alone.

      In fact, a month after the murder, Patel wrote to Nehru that “It was a fanatical wing of the Hindu Mahasabha directly under Savarkar that (hatched) the conspiracy and saw it through.” (ibid, p. 93) The Kapur Commission later agreed with this judgment in similar words: “All these facts taken together were destructive of any theory other than the conspiracy to murder (Gandhi) by Savarkar and his group.” (ibid)


      Delete
    4. DEBUNKING IDEA OF HINDUTAVA DURING FREEDOM STRUGGLE

      let me debunk the flaw idea of Hindus to stay active in the war effort and not disobey the government, He urged the Hindus to enlist in the armed forces to learn the "arts of war'' .if this indeed was the case then many partiots like bhagat singh , khudiram bose netaji bose chandrashekar azsad should have joined forces with British and learn "Arts of war'' instead if fighting against British , there was no noble reason behind vd savarkar call, he always had anti Muslim sentiments at the time when nation was fighting to get rid of British rule . in this sense Gandhi , patel , bose etc did good job on uniting Indians under one cause vd savarakar was British agent since he had signed plea bargain , hence he made sure to sabotage any effort by patriots who fought against British by turning communal sentiments against Muslims diverting attention.

      At Gandhi the trial, Savarkar was not convicted. And it was for the same reason as with the Wyllie murder. Godse and Apte protected him as they were led to the gallows. vd savakar hid behind shadows used ghodse and madanlal dhingra for his own motives , savakar conspiracy against Gandhi was purely communal , if he indeed was patriotic he should been active participant in all the plots , instead ghodse apte phawa and madan dhingra were made scrape goats


      if indeed that idea of militating Hindus and sending them to ww2 along British was justified at time of freedom struggle. then Gandhi should also be he held not guilty of same crime he committed by recruiting Indians to fight along British .to conclude both vd savarkar and Gandhi are guilty of same crime with different intentions they both were British agents

      Can this man be respected and praised as a freedom fighter ?


      Delete
    5. "Can this man be respected and praised as a freedom fighter ?"

      Yes he was a freedom fighter. His objective was to rid India of British rule and he did what he can. Whether he was nice person or not, whether he was utterly unscrupulous or not, whether he was communalist or not, hardly matters.

      Do you want to respect and praise him? That is a matter of choice.

      PS - Islamists had been waging a war of annihilation on Hindudom since 636 AD and it is still going on. Those who do not see this fact are either lying or fooling themselves.

      Delete
    6. @Sagar

      In a few lines,u have underlined the whole thing that I have been trying to establish on Savarkar for the last few days :) _/\_ Savarkar needs a fair judgement,he has been deprived of the same by the communist lobby of historians in india.

      Delete
  9. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Real reason why Savarkar is so much hated is because he pointed out that most important event or series of events in last 1400 years of India's history is war of annihilation waged by Islamists on Hindudom. Truth is that British rule was nothing more than an a short interruption of this war which has been going on for hundreds of years.

    ReplyDelete
  12. SAGAR plzz read entire comment once again and understand the point iam making here
    its long comment it may hard to understand, I will summarise my thoughts

    vd savakar hindutava was a smokescreen to cover-up his hatred to anti Muslim agenda
    at the time when India was already fighting British occupation ,a good leader should unite the community to fight against foreign rule, instead he tried to divide Indians in communal lines ,

    we would to fight both internal and external factors if we go by his line of thought

    "Real reason why Savarkar is so much hated is because he pointed out that most important event or series of events in last 1400 years of India's history is war of annihilation waged by Islamists on Hindudom. Truth is that British rule was nothing more than an a short interruption of this war which has been going on for hundreds of years. "

    THE REAL REASON WE HATE SAVAKAR WAS HIS PLEA BARGAIN DEAL WITH BRITISH AND HIS ANTI COMMUNAL AGENDA , OVERALL HE WAS BRITISH AGENT HE WAS BEHIND GANDHI ASSISANTION AND CURZON WYLEE ASSASIANTION BUT GHODSE AND MADAN LAL DHINGRA WERE MADE THE FALL GUYS

    HOW CAN U THINK OF HINDUTAVA IN A FIGHT AGAINST BRITSH RULE?

    HOW CAN U ASK INDIANS TO JOIN BRTISH ARMY TO GAIN EXPERINCE THEN EXPECT THEM TO FIGHT BRTISH RULE AND THEN MUSLIMS ? THIS IS RIDICULOS CALIM IF U TAKE IT LITERALLY

    I WILL GIVE AN EXAMPLE IF RUSSIA INVADES USA THEN DO U THINK BLACK AND WHITES SHOULDS FIGHT INVASION SEPRATELY ON RACIAL LINES ?

    DO U FEEL ITS GOOD ADVISE THAT NATIVE AMERICANS SHOULD FIRST JOIN RUSSIAN ARMY TO GAIN BATTLE EXPERINCE AND FIGHT AGAINST INVADING RUSSIANS AND THEN WHITE PEOPLE ?

    IF U STILL DONT UNDERSTAND MY POINT THEN UR A BLIND BHAKT OF VD SAVARKAR

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. sonam once again excellent analysis !! most people don't realise that
      British funded both Muslim league and Rss to communally divide Indians
      and weaken the freedom movement. Jinnah was never a popular leader with Muslims .it was because of people like savakar Muslims got polarised
      decided to join with Jinnah in creating Pakistan.

      Delete
    2. British funded both Muslim league and Rss to communally divide Indians
      and weaken the freedom movement. Jinnah was never a popular leader with Muslims .it was because of people like savakar Muslims got polarised
      decided to join with Jinnah in creating Pakistan. -------- Unfortunately this bit of opinion reflects a lack of understanding on the nature of islam . Savarkar or not,Indian muslims as a community were never interested in freedom struggle.Because whenever the islamic community judges the pros or cons of a dispensation,it sees whether the ruler is a threat to islam in the first place,and if the answer to that is negative,the flow chart mostly ends there.That is why u will find so much of muslim hatred for one democratic leader modi,while the same amount of bile was not reserved for any of the british lords or governors as such.Even the british followed a policy of mollycoddling with islamic society of india,and infact till 1930s,the BIA was almost 40% muslim in composition.Savarkar had understood and comprehended the crisis,and he had foreseen it better than most freedom fighters of his era.However just as a passing point,i would like to mention that the secularism displayed by the freedom fighters of that era was a genuine one,in the best interests of the nation(as they perceived it),and not a vote milking strategy like it has been since indep.And apart from this,one more fact is that the leftist historical narrative has washed off the pro-Hindu bias of many a freedom fighter and intellectual from the pre indep era.Just to quote an example,Rashbehari Bose had opened chapters of Hindu mahasabha in south east asian cities and had managed to convert a significant number of buddhist population of SE asian nations to hinduism.these efforts from his side are selectively washed off from mainstream historical narrative.Hence i always say this,the freedom struggle needs to be understood in its true colours,it was by and large a hindu struggle against an antiHindu dispensation.And many of the so-called secular freedom fighters or intellectuals of those days had understood the importance of a Hindu india in the long run. its just that we have never been fair to our own history,we have always tried to mollycoddle it with nehruvian thoughts.

      Delete
    3. jam I never expected u to change anyways , u have been selectively blind
      to some wrong notions of history never understood large picture
      u seem to recycle the points made earlier and copy paste previous points
      so I don't see need to address my points again and again,
      let the ignorance bring u peace

      Delete
    4. @Chatbot

      Relax bro, this line of thought of ur - " Jinnah was never a popular leader with Muslims .it was because of people like savakar Muslims got polarised
      decided to join with Jinnah in creating Pakistan. " - is the one leftist historians love to narrate,since it allows them to paint the muslim community in a grand picture.Sure,they would have given some loyal freedom fighters and patriots,if only Savarkar had not stepped in :) I am tired and sick of hearing this.As i mentioned earlier,Indian muslims wouldnt have been involved ever on a large scale,even if savarkar or jinnah didnt exist at all on earth,simply because the islamic community didnt see british govt as a threat to their religious existence.

      Delete
    5. jam I will make a last ditch attempt to make u understand my point
      I don't have any left vs right agenda , I don't support fake narratives by both sides let me copy paste Sonam pointed earlier I qoute


      "I WILL GIVE AN EXAMPLE IF RUSSIA INVADES USA THEN DO U THINK BLACK AND WHITES SHOULDS FIGHT INVASION SEPRATELY ON RACIAL LINES ?

      DO U FEEL ITS GOOD ADVISE THAT NATIVE AMERICANS SHOULD FIRST JOIN RUSSIAN ARMY TO GAIN BATTLE EXPERINCE AND FIGHT AGAINST INVADING RUSSIANS AND THEN WHITE PEOPLE ?"

      Delete
    6. jam I am curious tell me one thing u seem be to a right wing guy if I go by support of rss and savarkar ideology

      then u should joined captain vadakayil blog, who support such narratives
      him and his blind bhakts. lol...

      Iam surprised that ur not a captain follower :)

      Delete
    7. @Chatbot

      whether i am a right wing guy is a different issue,but capt blog is not a pinnacle of right wing mindset.FYI capt is a person who is mortally afraid of muslims ,and hence he vents all angst against jews&xtians,who wont bang him up on the street.But to ensure fair judgement to him,he hails from calicut,as per his own admission,and calicut has a sizable muslim presence.Hence i cant blame him for behaving like a mouse while criticising islam,and becoming a tiger in his criticism of jews.

      I have sympathy for right wing and even far right,and heck even far left also(if the far left subscribes to Hindu civilizational values). I have a mild support for bjp,but i am not a bjp guy by any standards.in general i am interested more in people or groups working to reinforce the hindu cultural&civilizational backbone.

      and by my standards of judgement,Vadakayil doesnt fit either right or left or centre,he fits only his own blog :)

      On savarkar or rss,first let me make it clear,I dont support the present RSS,they are just an electoral machine for their political outfit,the bjp.The orgs that i do support to some extent are Arya Samaj,Hindu Samhati of bengal and similar types.

      Delete
    8. @chatbot you seem to be a fool whose knowledge and understanding of history is very poor.
      I have already mentioned why Hindus from different ethnic groups didnt unite to fight Muslims except sporadically, its because Hindus from different regions viewed each other as foreigners to some extant.
      And they were not averse to using foreigners to defeat their enemies.

      Keeping that in mind, Indian history makes sense rather the modern Hindus oh why didnt Yadavas help the Pandyas and Kakatiyas against Khiljis ! Why how selfish of them or how could Samyuktas father betray Chauhan etc etc.

      People like you knows some facts but do not understand the context because they dont understand the socio political circumstances, lack common sense and have no insight into human psychology.
      Those who insist that Hindus shouldve had done this or that rather than how they behave are like armchair military "experts" criticizing D Day operation in WWII because it didnt go 100% smoothly. I am not terribly interested in your opinion in these matters .I am sorry to say.

      Delete
    9. Re Savarkar

      re Sonam and chatbot since you are fond of caps and dont understand anyway other let me put it for you.

      1. IS THERE ANY CONCRETE PROOF THAT SAVARKAR'S PLEA DEAL ENTAILED BETRAYAL OF OTHERS
      2. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE THAT IS COMPARABLE TO SAVARKARS WORK
      3. HOW LONG WOULD ARMCHAIR WARRIORS LIKE YOU LAST IN AN ANDAMAN JAIL?

      WHO THE HECK ARE YOU EXACTLY TO CAST ASPERSIONS AND OOUBLE GUESS PATRIOTS NO MATTER HOW FLAWED THEY MAY BE. SAVARKAR WAS FAR FROM PERFECT , YES PRISON PROBABLY BROKE HIM. YES THERE WERE OTHERS WHO WERE ABLE TO TOLERATE BETTER BUT HE IS HUMAN. I HAVE BEEN TO JAIL. I ASSURE YOU IT IS NOTHING LIKE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION OR WHATEVER STUPID IDEAS YOU HAVE ABOUT IT.

      SONAM AND CHATBOT YELLING AT SAVARKAR OR BOSE ARE LIKE DOGS BARKING AT THE SUN.

      Delete
    10. ysv ,no comments on above as i cannot make blind bhakts like u to understand line of reasoning , you will always cherry pick few points never understand comment fully reading it .let alone comprehending points

      ysv point when i did use caps in my argument dont tag me and sonam
      we have separate line of logic

      Delete
    11. @YSV

      both sonam and chatbot are going through a phase of life where they try to judge things in binaries,particularly in chatbot's opinion i see a reflection of myself that was 4-5 years back :) now i understand that many of my binary opinions ,good and evil types that is,were wrong.Just like gandhi has been projected unduely to convert him into a demi god,in the same way,savarkar has been transformed into a goliath by the left dominated indian historical circle.infact now i realise that the so called leftist intellectuals dwell in far more of a binary world than a normal person does,in the sense that they demonise someone they dislike for maybe one or two points,and they put some other person to the status of a deity.with this same binary analysis,the leftist historical lobby has glorified fanatic muslims of the delhi sultanate ,and Savarkar unfortunately has been on the receiving end of their flak. 3 years back,when i first started discussing with u on history,I myself had a wrong notion on Savarkar,I had somewhat the same notion that chatbot or sonam are having,but I never villified savarkar like they are doing.Now I say this with deep regret ,that I was wrong on Savarkar,he was far more correct than me,and he was ahead of most of the revolutionaries of his time,in his thoughts and understanding the root problems of indic civilization.As sagar rightly pointed out,Savarkar had comprehended the fact that India must remain a hindu nation,in order to preserve the indic civilization.

      Regarding the jail term of savarkar,not many know ,and some intentionally avoid quoting even when they do know,that Savarkar was tortured brutally in Andaman cell,just to break him up psychologically.people respond differently to such tortures,I would have fared a 1000 times worse than savarkar in the face of such torture.Hence I should be the last person to judge savarkar for his mercy plea.there are a group of leftists in twitter who routinely quote this "flaw" on behalf of savarkar,on signing the mercy petition.and they glorify nehru for never signing such petitions.However,they fail to realise that Nehru got far better treatment even within jail,and a decent amount of respect also.

      Delete
    12. jam well I dont I can relate to ur narrative of going through binaries

      if any convincing evidence or theory that comes up and says vd savarkar hindutva was justified during freedom struggle I will accept it gracefully

      may be we have separate narratives about historical figures and events

      like u i had wrong notion of Gandhi being responsible for partition .I think Gandhi, patel etc deserves some credit that they were able to unite mass irrespective of religion to fight for nation

      Delete
    13. in future I will not participate more in historical debates , may be in general matters I will tag along

      it seems everyone in this blog including ysv , jam ,sonam etc have their own theory regarding these events ,they tend to get defensive when countered their belief, so why ruin the happiness of others

      I will let other fight out if any meaning full point comes up then I will gain from it.


      Delete
    14. @Chatbot

      never mind bro,that was just a passing comment from my side :)

      Gandhi was not all wrong,though he was wrong and stubborn for a greater part of his life.and cheerleaders like patel or nehru beside him only made things worse.however in terms of intentions and clarity,Savarkar is better than any of the trio of Patel,nehru or gandhi.Savarkar was open on his intentions and wishes,those may be wrong,or may be right,that is a separate debate,however Savarkar was honest in whatever he wished or stood for.He considered british power to be a passing streak in the passage of indian history,and he understood that indic civilization can never gel up with abrahamic philosophies.hence he decided to use whatever resources he had at disposal with the british rule,in strengthening the indian hindu community.Whether his ways were wrong,or the extent of his success are debatable,but he was true to his intentions.Not like some others who were career opportunists under the garb of freedom struggle coat.and just to inform u,one of the reasons Netaji had become unpopular in the INC top brass by late 1930s was his relentless anti-British stance,which many of the top leaders from erstwhile congress didnt like or subscribe to,since the struggle against british was causing discomfort to their cozy ministerial lives.savarkar alone is blamed for his open stance in support of british govt,while the INC leaders could hide the same very well ,hence they never got a share of the same blame.

      AS u can see,probably we are on different grounds when it comes to judgement of a personality.Not that one is better than other,its just that we are different in our views.Hence on savarkar debate,this will be my last comment.However I would request YSV to put up a blogpost on Savarkar in near future,as and when his time permits .

      Delete
    15. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    16. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    17. Sonam ji,

      I do not deny that Savarkar was anti-Muslim. But he has given his reasons rooted in historical events in his books like Hindutva-Who Is a Hindu and Six Glorious Epochs of Indian History.

      And talk of Hindu-Muslim unity is unrealistic. Leadership of Muslims is in the hands of Islamists then and now. Most of Muslim masses toe to the line set by their leaders. And do these leaders have any incentive for joining anti-British struggle in partnership with Hindus?

      Answer is no. Because in a Hindu majority India, these Muslim leaders cannot rule like Mughal emperors nor will they get any undue privileges and hence to them, it made more sense in allying with British. You may argue that Hindus and Muslim fought together in 1857 and that they were united under Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose. True, but these are only exceptions and exceptions do not make a rule.

      As for Savarkar being the hand behind the murders conducted by Dhingra and Godse – Well, we do not have any evidence to prove it. Even if one assume it were to be true, it proves that he was real villain, but still it does not deny his commitment to a free and united India.

      Savarkar was a British agent! What a joke! If he had been a British agent, why in the world would British ban him from participating in politics for five years after his release from prison? British never for a moment trusted him and always kept an eye on him.

      Honestly speaking, if Congress had conducted a real freedom struggle – like what Shivaji did in 17th century or what Sikhs did in 18th century, then believe me or not – Brits would have arrested and deported all Congress leaders or at worst, shot. Fact is that Brits never saw Congress a serious threat.

      In fact, Lala Lajapat Rai, who was beaten to death by British himself had put forward the theory that Congress was set up by British to make sure that Indian resentment do not assume violent form (“Safety Valve Theory”).

      Savarkar was far sighted in exhorting Indians to join British Army during World War 2. His idea was that by the end of war, millions of Indians should be trained in war and there should be vast stocks of arms and ammunition and large number of arms factories available across the country. Since Indians innately hate British rule, even a minor spark will ensure that these millions of Indians in arms will sweep British into the sea. In one sense, this was what happened.

      Why did Brits leave India? Due to fear that a muintiy was brewing in Indian army and also due to the fact that there were too many Indians in arms and too few British soldiers. Massive Recruitment during World War 2 destroyed the pre-War British policy of recruiting soldiers only from select loyal castes and tribes. Thus millions of Indians not from loyal Martial Races (whose loyalty was not 100 percent assured) could join army. Thus the pre-war British practice of having 2 British soldiers for every 3 Indians soldiers disappeared during Second World War.

      Whether one like it or not, you do not gain freedom from a foreign power occupying your country by means of political agitation or mob violence. For that you need military muscle – men trained in war.

      PS - If you say that “I hate Savarkar since I do not like his face”, then it is understandable. But to say that he is a British agent and that he was ideologically unsound hardly makes sense in light of objective facts.

      Delete
    18. sagar thanks for the reply

      I don't have a personal agenda in hating savarkar but historical standpoint where vd savarkar asks for plea bargain, given his anti Muslim sentiments during his youth and finally asking Hindus to join British in ww2 raises my suspicion that ,was his intention really noble ?or he was a freedom fighter I still need some more counter points to prove otherwise

      I agree in todays scenario the Muslim appeasement policy is not progressive idea since many radical elements exist in Muslim community today


      But during a historical event such as freedom struggle u cannot divide people in communal lines this ideology was largely advocated by British
      "divide and rule theory" people like savarkar made it even simple on the other side u had Jinnah who was another polarising figure

      people must be united in secular ground when faced an external threat otherwise its bound to create loyalty towards the invading forces by minority community . Muslims are Indians just as a Hindus this is why
      savakar never gained mainstream acceptance back then and never was ble to take centre stage like Gandhi Nehru Patel ,bose at last stage , they were better leader with good vision at least patel and Bose were better leaders than Gandhi and Nehru . I feel sadar patel represents spirit of hindutva rss better than savakar ever did

      Delete
    19. I do support hinudtva yogi adityanath is better than modi in terms doing some work for hindus

      let re state my point again "Muslims are just as Indians as Hindus "are

      when aamir khan and shahrukh spoke about insecurity they were demonised by
      radical rss , media people questioned their patriotic intention, along same line praksh raj called modi a better actor than him will these people send him to Pakistan and declare him deshdrohi , no because he is a Hindu not Muslim actor

      this hypocrisy must eliminated otherwise u will end up justifying radical Islam

      Delete
    20. Prakash Raj or Prakash Rai which is his original name (in Kannada films)is not a Hindu.He has a catholic mother.

      Delete
    21. Also I don't understand how you are justifying the intolerance narrative of the Bollywood Khans. And when did RSS demonize them? Otoh, they are are mollycoddling them and trying to prove themselves more secular. RSS man & CM of Maharashtra is chummy with Amir Khan these days.

      Delete
    22. I do support hinudtva yogi adityanath is better than modi in terms doing some work for hindus ---- what are Yogi's education qualifications btw? I have no idea how a woman can support hindutva when 200 years ago, this same hindutva would have made a woman burn on pyre along with her dead husband.

      Delete
    23. Yogi Adityanath is a nutcase who has more than a few screws loose. I dont think he is even in touch with reality. The very fact that this deranged crank became a CM is a symptom of sickness of the populace. Another thing how the heck does a yogi enter politics, I thought yogis were supposed to renounce the world of power and attachments.

      There was no Hindutva 200 years ago. It is an ideology just about a 100 years old invented by Savarkar. He embraced relatively progressive views regarding women which is more than I can say for the crackpot Lokmanya Tilak who was upset that the minimum age of marriage of girls was increased(!!) to 12. Even this was too much for him

      Delete
    24. @YSV

      with deepest regards ,i disagree with ur opinion on Yogi.let us be fair,yogi is the saffron version,the green or mullah versions of yogi are there in many states as CMs or even in the past as PMs.for example,take siddaramaiah,mamata banerjee,the telengana CM,Tarun gogoi(currently not in power).All these people wear the green coat and sponsor islam.Yogi does the exact opposite.and my judgement is that yogi is by and large miles ahead of his predecessor akhilesh or mayavati.Yogi's decisions in admin reform,police,educational reforms,industrialization efforts are something no UP cm had probably done before him.overall he is not a bad CM by any standards,and far better than many others presently holding the posts of CM or those who have held such posts in the past also.

      the problem with hindutva is that it has become the monopoly of Sangh parivar,which has many crackpots up there in the top,who do little concrete on ground,and only speak volumes.

      Delete
    25. My concern with the yogi is the pretty much the same as the BJP but he is more open in his anti Muslim bias. In small doses this a good thing- he was correct to downgrade the Taj Mahal- a Stalinistic monstrosity of very basic design which is unimpressive when you get past the scale and marble to cover up for its ordinariness.
      However he has not shown ability for governance from what I have seen apart from attempting Sanghi values into practice.

      Can you point to me sources regarding Yogi's reforms.

      Ifyou say he is not bad compared to Mayawati, Mulayam Singh etc, well admittedly thats a low bar to cross, so I suppose that way it is still a step in the right direction.

      The problem is not so much Adityanath but U.P which is a schizophrenic and artificial state with no real identity.

      Delete



    26. @YSV

      hopefully this will give u a broad overview,I shall follow up later on with other links as well.

      https://www.quora.com/What-administrative-and-police-reforms-did-Yogi-Adityanath-bring-after-becoming-CM-of-UP

      http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/yogi-adityanath-s-education-overhaul-english-starts-at-nursery-level-in-up/story-dldnabbP01JmaEii1nARwN.html

      http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/big-reform-by-yogi-govt-up-madarsas-to-teach-from-ncert-books-117103000481_1.html

      https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/yogi-adityanath-turns-to-tech-to-police-law-and-order-in-uttar-pradesh/articleshow/59116452.cms

      https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/development-but-no-compromise-on-core-hindutva-values-yogi-governments-100-days-report-card/articleshow/59313941.cms

      one interesting development,UP is the first state in india where each police station is connected to the social media with their own twitter accounts.but that is not the only thing.The CM office has appointed a senior police official for each district to monitor the status of twitter complaints ,which has forced the police to actually respond to social media based complaints by people.Bangalore and Pune city police have implemented the same in the city regions,but on a state level,UP is the first to do so.

      Delete
  13. Imo,the biggest problem of India is 1.25 billion population packed in a small land.
    I was reading up some data and saw that while country's fertility rate has decreased to 2.3 per woman which is a good news(2.1 is the desired) but the momentum will take some time to decrease. The bimaru states like Bihar ,up and Rajasthan have still over 3.0 fertility rate. Meanwhile this extremely high and illiterate/poor population will keep ensuring socialist policies and I don't blame the govt here(either bjp or Congress) so there goes any chances of getting proper funding of medical , research institutions. YSV,You don't know how bad is the medical problem in India. There is a serious shortage of doctors. Govt hospital are in bad shape and private hospitals simply loot money out of gullible people.
    Imo,we shouldn't have crossed 1 billion. At least Sanjay Gandhi tried .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually considering per square km, India isnt really that densely populated at all. It is far less densely populated over all than China or even Netherlands.It is the cities that give that impression. But most of India is small towns or villages which dont have a high population.

      THe issue with doctors,hospitals is connected to the usual corruption, lack of incentives and other issues associated with a poor country.

      Free markets and an able governance can fix these in no short time.

      The way to combat over population is to make optimum use of resources and ensure feudalism is at a minimum so that parents dont view children as a source of income via child labor.
      Socialist Sanjay Gandhi was basically trying to fix a problem that he and his family created in a barbaric manner. No thank you.

      Delete
    2. ysv the biggest problem is ur guilty of breaking some points defending ur own agenda , then shift goal post , if pointed out the mistake u become over defensive and turn hypocrite

      I know inside you already understood what I really meant it all .

      my attempt to correct notion of people like jam timdrake and you failed

      tim drake agreed with me earlier he got defensive when I said dalit vs
      Brahmin was created to fragment Hindus from within ,If dailt oppression by higher caste is what u want to hear so be it.

      jam is like a blind man even is u point out right direction he will walk in circles. so if jam wants to hear anti Muslim sentiments to justify vd
      savakar then be it .


      ysv just knows only dissect few points , change topics plug in new elements in debate as appeasement to tim drake , jam so if
      appeasement and ignorance makes these people happy then be it,

      hey ysv if u want to turn into parody site then u should not have banned
      milin patel as he would given u lifetime of material on incest

      Delete
    3. @YSV&Tim

      Ideally the population should have stayed at 33 crores only,as it was on indep.In a poor nation,u cant afford to increase the number of heads,and Nehru thought the exact opposite.India is not a densely populated area,as per average density of sq km,but this population bubble is not healthy,1.2 billion and running! however it is unfair to blame india alone ,the whole world is running into a population crisis.couple that up with things like AI,automation ,and u got the recipe of a major economic and social collapse maybe around 2050 or some time later .

      Delete
    4. "Actually considering per square km, India isnt really that densely populated at all. It is far less densely populated over all than China" --- ysv,how are you calculating population density ? China has 2.5 times more area than India though most is inhabitable due to mountains but still more or less the same population as India . Most of Chinese population is in Eastern part kind of like India's gangetic belt. Regarding village being non-crowded - the fertility rate in rural India is still around 2.8 compared to 1.9 in urban areas.

      JAM, I don't think the whole world is heading into a population crisis. Most UN estimates are BS imo,they simply extrapolate data based on current rates to 50 years ahead - WTF! JAM,you should know that developed countries have actually total fertility rate below 2.1 now. Japan is already in a demographic crisis now. Why do you think Europe is being flooded with people from middle East and North Africa?
      Also,Don't forget the fact that due to liberal use of birth control pills in most Western nations ,a lot of species are getting feminized. This will happen in Indian cities also but I am pretty sure no one will bother to research on it.

      Delete
    5. China is much bigger for sure but most of China is really uninhabitable to this day. The bulk of the population is on the coasts next to Yangtze river.

      Fertility rate of 2.8 is still low compared to before. Ideally the fertility rate for a developed nation to be sustainable is 2.5 to 3.5.

      I agree with you about population crisis hyperbole but you are half correct. While developed nations are contracting populations apart from U.S ,France,Israel and now maybe Russia, most African nation and Middle East nations have a higher birth rate.
      But do note that their birth rate is also much lower compared to before. Iran used to have a fertility rate of about 5, that is collapsed to 1.5. Same trend for Palestinians, GCC countries etc.

      Delete
  14. ysv questions and my answers

    You are very confused. On one hand you say that there was never a freedom movement and then you mention SHivaji, Ranjit Singh, Maharan Pratap etc. Which is it?

    What about Rana Sangha who almost single handedly turned Babur away from north India or Krishnadevaraya who so terrified Babur that Babur simply sought his friendship.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________
    this is what happens if u read few line attempt to become a wise guy
    plz read it once again let quote "it was later" that maharana pratap
    ranjit singh , shivaji maharaj finally weakened Mughal power,
    _____________________________________________________________________________________
    Question: why are you attributing modern notion of nationalism and Hindu solidarity to the past. Just as Europe was Christian but fragmented among warring states so were Hindus.

    my answer read the passage once again let me quote my point is "Indians have not really learnt lesson of their past " why was there a lack of awareness about genocide among Hindus during that period ?

    why was there no united fight against Muslim conversion by Hindu kings?

    we as Hindu nation should learnt the first time Mughal invaded India ,it is because the ignorance of our ancestor who never considered Mughal as foreign invasion Islam spread in India

    _______________________________________________________________________________________



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ysv questions and my answers
      "where was the so called Punjabi, Martha ,Rajput ,jatts tamil ,Andhra mallu pride during Mughal rule and British rule ?"

      Telugu pride remained intact to crush the Muslim presence in Andhra even after defeats by Malik Kafur and help establish Vijayanagar which not only crushed the Madurai Sultanate prevented Islamic imperialism for 200 years. Even after Talikota the Nayaks and Polygars routinely defeated Golkonda and Bijapur armies

      Mallu pride humbled Tipu Sultan well before Wellington(Mallus also defeated Wellington later)

      Punjabi was first on the chopping block and hence last to be liberated. Same with Jatts. Tamils such as Ariyanatha Mudaliar established the polygar system which generated considerable headaches for later Muslim rulers.

      I dont rate Rajputs too highly so I wont offer a defence of them.

      " why did these martial race allowed the Indian woman to be raped by invading Muslim army .instead all these regional power allied with invaders only later they realised
      the concept of one nation and became aware of the colonial statues"

      None of these communities took kindly to women being raped or temples smashed. In general Muslims realized that as long as they didnt interfere in these matters ,and if taxation wasnt excessive Hindus wouldnt rebel. Such psychology is not unique to Hindus.
      ______________________________________________________________________________
      my answers ysv u have indirectly proved my point there was no coordinated effort to prevent Islam spread even if u defend individually still they failed in their attempt , read my point again "Indian woman " not Punjabi
      telgu , mallu, etc not regional as a whole from" Kashmir to south"
      ___________________________________________________________________________

      Delete
    2. ysv questions and my answers
      ***************************************
      This is hilarious. You have spent this entire post using inflammatory language against Hindus for not stopping genocide and rape of their women ala Bal Thackeray and Sadhvi Rithamabra(in the aftermath of 1993 bomb blasts, he distributed womens bangles to those karsevaks and Sainiks who didnt kill Muslims) and now you are pleeing for communal amity.

      Really you are a very confused man.
      ****************************************************************************

      this is classic Ysv trying to plugin in non existent issues like
      Bal Thackeray 1993 bomb blasts, etc which I never mentioned earlier.

      really!! where did I ask for " communal amity."

      all I said was "so called atrocity narrative of Hindu genocide only suits politicians ulterior motives so that they can divide and create vote banks
      divert attention to corruption by the political party in power"
      ***************************************************************************

      Delete
    3. ysv questions and my answers
      **********************************************************************
      I have spoon feed u all my thoughts since it takes such a effort to read whole thing a criticise my points instead of plugging in non existent issues
      dissecting whole without reading carefully

      Delete
    4. Read my response to your nonsense claims. No need to spoon feed me anything as I dont like to eat shit whether by hand or spoon. You can consume this shit knowledge by yourself.

      Delete
    5. ysv!! when reasoning fails u get down to mudslinging to prove ur points

      very well if thats what makes u happy then here is my reply
      *****************************************************************************
      "Read my response to your nonsense claims. No need to spoon feed me anything as I dont like to eat shit whether by hand or spoon. You can consume this shit knowledge by yourself"
      ***************************************************************************

      my reply - ysv , glad to hear that u don't like to eat shit with ur hand or spoon ,since u already are full of it in ur Head and in ur mouth !!

      Delete

    6. my reply - ysv , glad to hear that u don't like to eat shit with ur hand or spoon ,since u already are full of it in ur Head and in ur mouth !!"

      That is the occupational hazard of running a blog which occasionally intakes toxic waste in form of ignorant commenters. Anyhow I learned to be Shiva during the Sagar Manthan and absord the negate than let it affect me. Rakshasas do what they do. I dont blame them.

      Delete
  15. jam when i opened my theory about savakar i thought provide few quotes about about his early life as to bring attention to why he thinks what he thinks . but i the end we arrived at stalemate if we proceeded further we would had to resort to
    mudslinging personal attack etc this is not anyone fault

    i will give an example even if try to convince a christian to return to Hinduism qoting past history they will still have some reservations regarding their own family history as tim drake mentioned earlier that to escape the caste system dalits may have accepted conversion , may b true or may not b true anyways
    this was bound to happen

    ReplyDelete
  16. human history is subject to many interpretation ,even if the actual event had credible evidence we can debate it from many angles so human history is unreliable

    we have guys like vadakyil able to run a blog on the misinterpretation of history
    try proving his beliefs wrong he will spam ur comment

    todays heros like ram krishna etc have been subjected to perverse interpretation
    Ravana is the new Ram , durga has become a whore who oppresses dailt mahishasura

    we can even prove that bhagat singh bose , gandhi etc as anti national hero based on some a interpretation there is already a British apologist who will defend British colonization of India

    my point is truth and belief is separate entity History today is largely based on belief . in this sense even people like Vadakyil has all the rights to claim that Jews were from Kerala , Jesus was from Kerala etc , just as we believe otherwise.its his personal belief and his followers personal choice to believe him and follow his belief

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. MY HUMBLE REQUEST TO ALL INCLUDING ,JAM ,YSV ETC IS READ THE WHOLE COMMENT THEN COME TO UR INTERPRETATION DON'T CHEERY PICK THE POINTS UNDERSTAND THE FULL SUMMARY WHAT I WISH TO CONVEY ,

      Delete
    2. Sonam, Regarding Captain ,I wont say he is all wrong. See he is in his 60s and his parents and grandparents lived through the colonial era who must have told him a lot of things ,for eg he claims his maternal grandmother was a physician to a famous German linguist(I am forgetting his name). In that way,he is a decent source of modern history. His earlier blogs were good where he allowed all kinds of comments and answered in a well mannered way. Post 2011-12, something happened and he changed . Of course he tries to fit everything to Kerala but there is a small grain of truth like even the british colleges accept that pre-calculus and trignometric series were creation of Kerala School of maths and astronomy which were earlier contributed to a European mathematician. He may also be right when he says malyalam is the language closest to Sanskrit in present India. However, I wouldn't trust his interpretation of vedas . And of course ,he attributes everything to Rothschild .

      Delete
    3. @tim

      ur point is generally true in the broad sense.No body on earth is probably all wrong in everything.However,capt's grandmother being a physician in the british period is no substitute for sound historical work,from primary materials.and i agree with u,capt was originally a far more balanced blogger in his early blogging years.Regarding kerala school points or malayalam,I have no problem agreeing with the same,provided strong facts are placed .and malayalam is a sanskritic language ,probably the closest also,i agree with that too,though as a novice on linguistic studies and not an expert .Hence my favourable opinion on malayalam doesnt count at all.

      Delete
    4. JAM, I don't understand either Tamil or Malayalam but I've heard that Malayalam is mostly Sanskritized Tamil. Tamil language warriors are of the view that Malayalam is just another dialect of Tamil that is heavily sanskritized. Surprisingly, Iniyavel does not subscribe to this view and says that Malayalam is an independent language. Premchand, perhaps can shed more light on this. Also Malayalam has been given a classical language status. I would like to know from YSV and Premchand whether Malayalam actually deserves this.

      Delete
    5. @Anu

      Malayalam used to be a dialect of Tamil until the 13th century, when Kerala started developing its own independent identity. Until then, Kerala was considered part of Tamil country. The Sangam poems (which were composed approximately 2000 years ago) state that there are three regions in the Tamil country- Chera, Chola and Pandya. The Chera region consisted of modern day Kerala. Even the name 'Kerala' is related to 'Chera'. These are all uncontroversial historical facts, which most Malayalees would agree with (that is, except people like Captain).

      As for Malayalam today being a dialect of Tamil, this is an exaggeration. While Tamilians can learn Malayalam easily and vice versa, these two languages are not mutually intelligible. Apart from Sanskrit words, Malayalam also contains many words that are found in Sangam Tamil but not in Modern Tamil!

      Classical language status is similar to Bharat Ratna- it has become less about merit and more about politics.

      Delete
    6. Premchand, thank you for this.

      Delete
    7. @Premchand NOt to pull a captain but some historians believe that Tamil claim on Chera was political but not cultural. The region of Chera applied more often to the Kongu region of TN than Kerala depending on who used it. I think Sagar M also pointed out that Kerala has more in common culturally with Dakshina Kannada than TN to this day.

      Delete
    8. I agree with you regarding the status of classical language being political. But what is the criteria of judging what a classical language? And how sound is that criteria. Based on that we can make a proper analysis whether language X or Y deserves that status.
      Anyhow Sanskrit and Tamil is a no brainer due to their provenance and plethora of literature in pretty much every field of human endevour.

      Delete
    9. "
      we can even prove that bhagat singh bose , gandhi etc as anti national hero based on some a interpretation there is already a British apologist who will defend British colonization of India

      my point is truth and belief is separate entity History today is largely based on belief . in this sense even people like Vadakyil has all the rights to claim that Jews were from Kerala , Jesus was from Kerala etc , just as we believe otherwise.its his personal belief and his followers personal choice to believe him and follow his belief"

      History is nothing but interpretation of known facts, some circumstantial evidence and speculation about unknowns into a coherent narrative which will most likely contain the biases of the historian.
      However there are certain truisms in history which no amount of crank propaganda or conspiracy theories can erase

      Firstly there is no concrete evidence to show that there was an individual called Jesus but it is not outside the realm of possibility . What IS outside the realm of possibility is that Jesus hailed from Kerala. Extraordinary claims require extra ordinary evidence. It would require much more than claiming Mary Magdalene was a Namboothiri because she had long black hair LOL. The missing years of Jesus brings out the creative in everyone apparently.

      As for Gandhi and Bhagat Singh being anti national, I try and judge people not so much by their words but their actions. Both the actions and words of Bhagat Singh do not leave any doubt to his intentions being against British rule.

      However with regard to Gandhi, I cant say it was he was a straightforward British agent or nationalist stalwart. His recruiting for Indian soldiers for the British efforts in WWI and WWII can stem from his nostalgia ,projection and longing for being in action himself to counterbalance his Ahimsa(Gandhi was a stretcher bearer for the British in the Boer war). He naively believed that the British would look more kindly to Indian independence if they had their way. The British being dishonorable turncoats never hesitated to go back on their word.

      Interesting that pretty much everyone whether Muslim League, Nehru, Jinnah, Savarkar or Gandhi except Rajagopalachari was ok with Indians being recruited for WWII! Even if they had different motivations for doing so. In the end it was the British who benefited. This type of three dimensional chess right here was why the British managed to rule India for so long with such few British forces on the mainland.

      Delete
    10. @YSV

      Sangam literature specifically mentions places in Kerala as belonging to the Chera country. Take for example the Chera port of Muziris, which is identified with modern day Kodungallur in Kerala. Even if this identification is wrong, Muziris has to be located somewhere in the Malabar coast since it traded with the Greeks. Moreover, the Kongu region has no ports since it is completely landlocked.

      It is possible that the cultural affinity between Kerala and Dakshina Kannada, along with the intense Sanskritization of Malayalam developed post Sangam era.

      Re Classical languages, this is the criterion laid down by the Indian govt:

      "High antiquity of its early texts/recorded history over a period of 1500–2000 years; a body of ancient literature/texts, which is considered a valuable heritage by generations of speakers; the literary tradition be original and not borrowed from another speech community; the classical language and literature being distinct from modern, there may also be a discontinuity between the classical language and its later forms or its offshoots."

      It is clear that Malayalam literature don't have a high antiquity of 1500-2000 years. However, the Kerala school of Mathematics did write few of their amazing treatises on Calculus and trigonometric series in Malayalam- a prestige not shared by any other Indian language, arguably not even Sanskrit. Yes, Aryabhata Bhaskara and Brahmagupta composed their mathematical works in Sanskrit, but it is likely that their spoken language was actually a Prakrit. They may have done much of their work in the Prakrit languages, and formally presented the end results in Paninean Sanskrit.

      Delete
    11. @Premchand

      Tulu culture is actually quite ancient and may predate Tamil culture. Scholars noted that Tulu and Coorgi are likely older than Tamil but they dont get the recognition as such because their body of literature cant compare to Tamil.

      Sangam literature portrays strong Indo Aryan elements in Tamil culture of that era, but it deals mostly with Chola and Pandya country if I am not mistaken.
      When I say Kongu was Chera, I mean the seat of power of Chera was Kongu. It is likely similar a superior political power of Tamils lording over another culture. Malayalam is not that ancient obviously but it is likely a variant of Tulu was spoken in much of Kerala rather than Tamil.

      Delete
    12. @YSV

      I quite agree that Tamil is not the most ancient Dravidian-speaking culture. The high literary output of Tamil civilization may be the result of Jains who emigrated from North India and brought the Brahmi alphabet (ie literacy) to TN. George Hart notes that the Tamil Sangams were originally Jain Sanghas not different from Buddhist seminaries like Nalanda. Quite a few Sangam poets were Jain/Buddhist monks actually! Interestingly, the next Dravidian literary productivity comes from Kannada, another culture that was heavily influenced by Jainism (Western Ganga dynasty, Shravanabelagola).

      Your theory about a variant of Tulu being spoken in Kerala is very interesting. Could you please provide some references for it? I would like to read the scholarly opinion about the link between Kerala and Dakshina Kannada.

      Delete
    13. ysv premchand jam and others I found blog which discussed a similar topic I will give you the link hope this helps
      http://bantwal.blogspot.in/2006/03/origins-of-malayalees.html

      Delete
    14. Premchand, there are many words common to Tamil and Kannada. While Kannada has more of sanskrit words than Tamil, I'm just wondering if Kannada was derived from Tamil. As per Wikipedia, Kannada is around 2500 years old and it has been given classical language status also.

      Delete
    15. @Anu

      Interestingly, Tamil shares common words with Kannada that don't exist in Malayalam, even as Tamil and Malayalam are closely related. For example, water is Neer in Tamil and Neeru in Kannada but Vellam in Malayalam!

      I think Tamil and Kannada are descended from a common ancestor rather than Kannada being descended from Tamil.

      Delete
  17. @anu thanks for reply ur prakash raj or rai is a half Hindu but identifies as Hindu
    so u cannot excommunicate him on that basis ,

    anu I agree " RSS man & CM of Maharashtra is chummy with Amir Khan these days."
    these are politicians who will sell their soul for few votes

    ysv Yogi Adityanath is a nutcase who has more than a few screws loose. they said same thing about modi before now he is hero among mass


    tim "I have no idea how a woman can support hindutva when 200 years ago, this same hindutva would have made a woman burn on pyre along with her dead husband. "

    you need to do lot of fact check before u make such statement I will not go into details but these false claims are turning Hindus into self loathing people

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. anu ysv tim etc didn't get larger issue what I wanted to say so they left the first part picked up on second part which supplementary prakash raj or aamir etc are examples

      if I say we should be secular people like jam will come remind us past
      history of Mughal and point out how Muslim's were unreliable during British rule ,jam is silent on xitians parsis taking side of British during that period , he is also silent on the fact that few Hindu community sided
      britsh like mahars , Sikhs , etc few also worked British as hawldars etc


      if I talk about needing strong Hindu leadership people like ysv tim drake
      will come and point out yogi is a nutcase etc , so I ask this means ur willing to accept secularism but openly shy away when I point out just for argument sake

      ysv if u don't support such ideology like hindutva then why come and support
      ur friend jam who is right wing man , I know u don't have a good opinion on modi so why pretend otherwise


      Delete
    2. Indian today are largely divided based on ideology this must be reconciled.
      British today did a good job of advocating divide and rule in past
      today few useful idiots like celebrities academics etc are doing good job
      doing same British work ,

      confusion comes when I say "we should united "is it the Hindus who should be united? or Indians should be united ?, I will leave that to people like jam ysv tim anu sagar etc for their own interpretation

      Delete
    3. it is the indics who will be united,abrahamics will never mix up properly with indic philosophies.however globally islam seems to be facing a major reform in its orientation,so if the same happens in india,20-30 years down the line,we can look forward to peaceful coexistence.

      Delete
    4. "you need to do lot of fact check before u make such statement I will not go into details but these false claims are turning Hindus into self loathing people" ----- so you are saying that sati didn't exist !!! Sure it didn't exist on a mass scale but it was still there . Sati and jauhar are different. It most likely didn't exist in puranic era or ancient era as we hear instances and stories of widows in ramayana and panchtantra but somewhere down the line it came into existence.
      Sure I am a self loathing Hindu in the cultural sense but I am still interested in the esoteric things that come from here like knowledge of yoga, Kundalini,saptachakra . Of course ,these principles were likely discovered by ascetics who would be considered as outcastes by the people of that time lol

      Ysv, in Captain's words,ball adityanath is a Yogi,Yogis don't have pouches lol. I doubt he is a yoga practioner like ramdev .btw, bill gates ,it seems had taken up interest in UP and just met Yogi adityanath a few days ago. He wants to "improve" the education in UP.

      Delete
    5. tim you got it right Sati and jauhar are different , imagine !!if sati was rampant in those days Hindu population would gone down drastically
      today . these are nonsense claim by historians

      Delete
    6. @sonam

      technically even if sati was prevalent,it wont have affected fertility rate of population,because the widows were made sati,whether voluntarily or by force.however i do belive that sati wasnt as much prevalent as we believe it nowadays,but even then i would like to mention that steps on abolition or ban of sati were taken by Harsha vardhana and then again by Akbar of mughal empire.this goes on to show that the process of sati was in common practice for the time spanning from harsha to akbar,at the least.Akbar's efforts were not successful though,since the hindu community of central india was getting infuriated with his decision ,and hence he backed off.but iirc,Harsha had strictly abolished sati during his reign.if the problem had not been widely prevalent,or atleast prominent enough,i dont think the kings would have shown interest in its abolition.just like the leftist historians,the modern group of hindutva vadi scholars are writing equally biased crap on medieval hinduism.both groups need to be shunned,for the sake of purity in history.and from the nationalist or Hindutva school of thought,RC majumdar and sita ram goel's works are pretty authentic&accurate.apart from that,the current hindutva brigade is as much a crackpot as the commie circle.

      Delete
    7. @jam technically I have to disagree because if taken as large perspective loss female population would have created gender imbalance and future
      generation of Hindu would be lower today due to other factors like famine , Muslim killing of Hindus, later Christian missionary responsible for Hindu genocide , I agree to some extent that it was isolated phenomenon not a rampant thing

      Delete
    8. The very fact that Akbar or no other Mughal or Muslim tried to abolish Sati shows the limit of their authority and that it was dangerous to meddle in Hindus customs whether they were good or bad(bad in the case of Sati). Similarly Tipu Sultan was aghast that women were walking around topless in Kerala and felt that they should be covered up.
      It is bizarre that while his army did commit many rapes, at the same time,Sultan provided clothes for Nair females. Tipu at once a jihadi but also influence by Napoleonic ideals of egalitarian and progressive views against feudalism which is how he viewed Nair culture. And he wasnt entirely wrong.
      However Nairs didnt take kindly to this interference and made his life rather difficult in Kerala, he escaped from them though not without a serious injury to his leg.

      Delete
  18. "@jam technically I have to disagree because if taken as large perspective loss female population would have created gender imbalance " -- sonam, a couple dies in sati ,both husband and wife, that means (number of men) - (number of women) = same pre-sati and post-sati. Regarding population, c'mon, 2-3 generations ago,people used to have 5-7 kids.I would assume this would be the case in earlier times also. One can easily replenish population in 200-300 years given enough resources,land.
    Besides , does Al-biruni or the chinese monks who came to india talk about sati ?
    What about the dowry/dahej system ? It still exists in some rural/village areas of north india(the gangetic/yamuna belt is the usual culprit). How did it come into being ? Did it exist in south india ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Read one of YSV's comments on Sati. http://empiresoflight.blogspot.com/2016/05/argument-with-ignorant-rajput.html?showComment=1464182857169#c5619382243818510299
      Also go through this on Elst's blog. http://koenraadelst.blogspot.in/search?q=sati
      Regarding dowry system, it's very much prevalent in South India. Also the entire cost of the wedding has to be borne by the bride's family. Mallus especially are notorious for demanding heavy dowry. Capt himself subtly supports dowry system. He once remarked that if he had a daughter he would have given a huge amount of dowry during her wedding. He also boasts about his wife's ancestral property and gold jewellery.

      Delete
    2. tim I agree with u on the point (number of men) - (number of women) = same pre-sati and post-sati. but ur not considering age gap btw bride and bride groom , also 5-6 children is an "assumption " not everyone was that much fertile .

      Delete
    3. @anu I also heard Budda matched around 500 horoscope for his son
      so if captain indeed accepted dowry then, its likely that he sold his elder son to Highest bidder ... LOL..

      Delete
    4. Also polygamy was rampant in those days. So more than 1 wife would also commit sati on the funeral pyre of the husband.

      Delete
    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    6. LOL, Quite possible. Capt had put up wedding photos of his daughter-in-law decked in heavy gold jewellery. Also he keeps on saying that arranged marriages are best, probably because one cannot demand much in a love marriage.

      Delete
    7. so if captain indeed accepted dowry then, its likely that he sold his elder son to Highest bidder ... LOL. ------- ROFL on that Sonam :D

      Delete
    8. Im shocked SHOCKED that the captain would accept this dirty dowry money on basis of his sons Rothschild education and job in the headquarters of the Jewish dominated Illuminati- New York state!

      Delete
    9. @Anu captain says arranged marriage is best because no woman in her right mind fell in love with him. There may well be some defect in his wife. A former colleague of mine was rather unattractive but ended up with a rather strikingly beautiful wife. When I asked him about it in a frank manner over drinks, he said she had epilepsy which was not mentioned before the marriage. He too was from Kerala.
      This is why I say you can question Caesars wife.
      https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Caesar%27s+wife+must+be+above+suspicion

      Delete
    10. @Anu Polygamy wasnt really prevalent except for the upper classes. Having more than one wife means more expenses which not everyone could afford. There is also the psychological aspect to it with dealing with more than one spouse. Sociologists say that men are polygamists by nature, I am not so sure. Men are more complex than women or even other men imagine. Men may like to have sex with multiple women but there is always just one woman who he will never leave. Ask any frustrated mistress of a rich man who whines about him never leaving his wife!

      Coming back to sati, the vijayanagar kings took it to an insane level. One king pretty much took entire court with him to the pyre. Dont know how often this occurred but this was recorded by a Portuguese observer.

      I personally think sati even back then really doesnt make sense. I can understand jauhar but certainly forcible sati is cruel and barbaric.

      @JAM
      Harsha banned sati because his favorite sister committed it and it traumatised him a great deal. While we can applaud his actions, it has to be sadly noted that there has never been a serious analysis of Sati and attempts to eradicate it by Hindu society until the British inspired Hindu reformers insisted against it. And British could only ensure its ban when the subjugation of the country was near complete and the populace disarmed.

      Delete
    11. "There may well be some defect in his wife" --- low blow, ysv

      Delete
    12. ysv
      "History is nothing but interpretation of known facts, some circumstantial evidence and speculation about unknowns into a coherent narrative which will most likely contain the biases of the historian.

      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Interesting that pretty much everyone whether Muslim League, Nehru, Jinnah, Savarkar or Gandhi except Rajagopalachari was ok with Indians being recruited for WWII! Even if they had different motivations for doing so. In the end it was the British who benefited. This type of three dimensional chess right here was why the British managed to rule India for so long with such few British forces on the mainland."


      "yes I agree with u this was what wanted to iterate but it got lost due many people trying to pick out their own best point from comment
      jam has his own version based what he believes is true , then tim drake has his own version , vadakayil has his won version, ysv has his own version , milin patel has his own version., its very hard to reconcile
      the difference of opinion when it comes to history

      Delete
    13. I believe when it comes to historical truths it may be subjective to own opinion because even if evidence is presented as a truth ,it can be dismissed based on the personal bias .

      Delete
    14. ysv jam and others
      along this i want to start a new topic called FAKE GODS BY ROTHSCHILD

      i still don't understand where did budda pick this term he has labelled gods
      like dattreya , radha , panduranaga , khandoba, even hanuman etc as fake gods
      saints like madhwa , raghavendra swamy , tulsidas, "all dasas in his own words" chaitnya prabhu all the naths shridi sai baba etc as
      FAKE GODS BY ROTHSCHILD

      Delete
    15. God alone knows what logic a crazy man operates on. But I do see a pattern of sorts-

      Captain follows the Vedas and earlier Puranas with regard to which diety is "genuine" so to speak.
      Shiva, Vishnu, Indra, Vayu,Brahma, Durga etc can be find in the Vedas and Puranas which were compiled in the GUpta age.
      Those that you mention were products of the late medieval bhakti era. I myself am a critic of the bhakti era as opposed to the mode of philosophical debates. But at the same time, bhakti era is similar to the Protestant reformantion in Europe in that it brought these dietie closer to the masses as the hymns and prayers were composed in the local vernacular as well as there was a fusion of mainstream dieties and local cults.

      Captain doesnt recognize these post Gupta bhakti era dieties but does make an exception for Ayyappa..gee I wonder why ;-)


      I dont know what is his beef with Hanuman. If tomorrow it was proven that Hanuman was from Kerala instead of Jharkhand by way for Deccan and TN, he would push Hanuman to the front of the queue of those who should be worshipped.

      All said and done, I am least interested in captains idea of yoga,tantra, chakras, 18 strand dna rishi, vibrations, groovy vibes due to havanas, poojas etc because he does not conduct any of this himself and considers these to be "womans stuff" ala Nehru. There was a weird gender imbalance in the post 20s socialist era where religion was scornfully considered womans work. Even today in post Soviet Russia, you see Russian women more religious and churchgoing than men.
      Captain was raised in the same milieu. And I would BJP/RSS/VHP folks as well. I would wager there are not a lot of guys in there who are qualified to utter shlokas for a havan. Their's is a political Hinduism ,not a religious one.

      Delete
    16. i will only go to sai baba case because this is very special here a Hindu devotees is willing accepting a Muslim FAKIR, nobody heard about saibaba till it became popular by word to mouth and cinema media

      sai baba himself never worshiped any Hindu god he repeated SAAB KA MAALIK EK HAI ,THIS IS ABRAHAMIC BELIEF , he used to recite Quran and have dhuni etc all of this refers to Islamic Sufi belief yet Muslims never accepted him . only Hindu devotees attribute to so called MIRACLES PERFORMED BY HIM

      TODAY MANY REFER TO HIM AS SAI RAM , DATTERYA AVATAR ETC YET HE HIMESLF WAS
      MUSLIM PRACTICING ISLAM SUFI SECT .

      THIS CULT HAS NOW GROWN INTO OWN RELIGION FIRST TIME HINDUS DON'T HAVE
      ANY ISSUE WORSHIPING MUSLIM PROPHET

      THIS IS A VERY SIMILAR MODEL OF ABRAHAMIC BELIEF LIKE CHRISTIANITY , ISLAM WHERE JESUS OR MOHD NEVER WROTE ANY BOOKS IT WAS THEIR FOLLOWERS WHO WROTE THE GOSPELS AND SURAS , WHERE PROPHET HIMSELF IS WORSHIPED AS GOD THAN GOD HIMSELF AND HISTORICALLY WE CAN NEVER PROVE THEIR ACTUAL EXISTENCE

      Delete
    17. MY QUESTION IS WHETHER SAI BABA MYTH WAS CREATED DELIBERATELY TO CONVERT HINDUS INTO ACCEPTING SOFT ISLAM IE SUFISM

      IS THERE A LARGER CONSPIRACY ? SINCE SAI BABA TEMPLE IS ONE RICHEST IN INDIA WHICH HINDUS VISIT REGULARLY ALL THESE MONEY IS BEING DIVIDED AMONG POLITICIANS TRUSTEES ETC , I FEEL THIS IS BIGGEST SCAM IN TERMS OF MAKING.

      SHEER SCALE OF MONEY INVOLVED AND TAKING GULLIBLE HINDUS INTO ACCEPTING ISLAMIC VALUES I SUSPECT THERE IS HIDDEN AGENDA BY SOMEONE .

      Delete
    18. @Sonam

      as per capt's claims,it seems rothschild has done hell lot of work to enrich the cultural diversity of hinduism :) rothschild spent a lot of time studying indic languages.

      coming to the point of shirdi sai baba or whatever symbolism is associated with him,a lot of this confusion among the current hindutva brigade will clear up if they read into the teachings and life of this mysterious saint sai baba.for example,the online hindutva keyboardies consider the sai of shirdi a muslim,who worked to bring out a caliphate :) however ,the real fact is that,all the practices,discourses of shirdi sai are fully from the vedas,upanishads and hindu scriptures.The most authentic account of shirdi sai is the book written by one of his closest devotees Dabholkar(which is popularly known as Sai Satcharita among sai devotees). if u read the book(it is freely available online),a lot of those islamic misconceptions would clear up.for example,this shirdi baba used to conduct daily recitation of the Srimad Bhagwad and Sri Ram Vijay in his masjid(which he never referred to as masjid,but called it Dwarka Mai,or the abode of Goddess Durga). the villages around shirdi had many broken abandoned temples.When shirdi sai became a bit popular,and alms started flowing,he used a part of that money to repair the temples,and even appointed brahmin devotees of his,to conduct daily rituals in these temples.He used to say that he could not bear the neglect of any temple,however small it might be.and along with that,he advised his hindu devotees to read their geeta,vedas ,upanishads, and to worship or atleast have respect for all deities in hinduism.That is the reason why no hindu has till date become a muslim following shirdi sai.I cant vouch for the yogic powers he displayed,as those can well be exaggarated by devotees,however going by his own teachings or instructions,he was in no tangible way an anti-hindu caliphate agent :) infact u will be amazed to know this,but in maharashtra,even many swayamsevaks in the rank&file of RSS&Sangh Parivar are sai devotees themselves,and they see no conflict in the same.the controversy on shirdi sai's islamic nature exists mainly outside maharashtra.last year I read that even in europe ,the shirdi sai worship is spreading amongst christians and is actually reinforcing hinduism there.and contrary to the popular narrative by capt or a few keyboard hindutva vadis,shirdi sai is not largely followed by the muslim community,because of their traditional beliefs against murti puja or such things.regarding the wealth of sai temple,I dont know whether the money is being channelised completely through legal ways .However i would like to mention one thing,the sai sansthan in shirdi gives free meal on a daily basis two times a day,which is open to all.the meal is of pretty high quality.this is as per the sai's own wishes,that no one should remain unfed once he/she steps into shirdi.iskcon also has this daily initiative of giving free meals .but not many hindu temple bodies have this system.I dont mean to say this for the smaller or financially weaker temple trusts,I mean it for even the far richer ones,which could easily afford good quality daily meal for the poor,but they dont.so clearly not all temple trusts are spending their money in meaningful ways,or in the benefit of the people and to be honest,even Gurmeet Ram rahim's dera sacha sauda was doing great social work,by giving work and shelter to a large number of poor people who lived in the ashram.haryana police was overzealous to drive them out and destroy the whole dera.i remember one particular pic that i saw in a local newspaper,where one old bihari man was walking away with his meagre belongings, from the dera back to his home in bihar.he told the reporter that now he had nothing to do,no one to take care of him in his old age.dera was like a home to him.that pic and the news article moved me a lot.

      Delete
    19. "as per capt's claims,it seems rothschild has done hell lot of work to enrich the cultural diversity of hinduism :) rothschild spent a lot of time studying indic languages. "LOL ON THAT JAM :)"

      I agree with u that sai baba has not converted anyone so far to islam
      that institution is doing good humanitarian job , my focus is on the
      man himself who was a Muslim origin who becomes a Hindu saint this
      is very hard reconcile for any orthdox Hindus .

      what u said is true about the dera which has become family to many near
      haryana area , but again the man in charge is corrupt so it has created
      a distrust among devotees JAM strangely ur narrative of the above matches rajeev malhotra. he claims that gurmeet was target of christian ngo and dera had preavent spread of Christianity and Maoism in that area ,as story goes punjab has a huge drug addiction issue and christian conversion among Sikhs seems to high so christian ngo benefited from gurmeet baba , nithyanada , shankaracharya of Tamil being convicted according rajeev mailhotras
      narrative these people have said to have been a barrier to these conversion

      I WILL GIVE U THE LINK IF UR INTERESTED SEE THE VIDEO
      https://youtu.be/dvcJI5yAd6M

      https://youtu.be/-vcVnuM95EI

      Delete
    20. JAM, Most rich temples in the south provide 2 free meals per day. Dharmasthala, Udupi math, Kukke Subramanya, Sringeri etc. provide 2 meals everyday for the devotees. Even the not-so-rich temples also provide at least one meal in the afternoon. I don't know how it is in WB.

      There is nothing Sufi about Shirdi saibaba. If I remember correctly, in saisatcharita I read that Sai Baba once said that he is a kabirpanthi and so he takes the name of both Rama & Allah. Btw, even in Sai Baba temples at other places Vishnu Sahasranamam chanting, shloka recitation, bhajans etc take place.

      Delete
    21. Also, opening fire on dera supporters and killing around 30 ppl,mostly Dalits by Khattar's police was a big blunder. The liberals, dalit groups, MSM nobody protested this. if it was done in Kashmir, imagine the reaction.

      Delete
    22. @Anu

      glad to know that,then south indian religious culture is better than the north ,on this aspect .in the north this concept of feeding the poor on a daily basis largely doesnt exist,exceptions are there,but not that much widespread like u mention in case of the south.When a temple trust is earning truckloads of money,the least it can do is to feed the poor on a daily basis.

      u are right,there is nothing sufi about shirdi sai,apart from his attire,which is generally considered to have been derived from sufi traditions.apart from that ,he was a kabirpanthi ,atleast his philosophy suggests that.his teachings stressed on advaita a lot,like kabir.also he was a great devotee of Lord Ram,just the same as Kabir.

      Delete
    23. @Anu

      The Dera supporters were rioting and engaging in destruction of property . Last year Haryana police was twiddling its thumbs when Jats went on a rampage. Thankfully they got their act together now.

      Delete
    24. Whether Shirdi was Hindu or Muslim is irrelevant as to his devotees who are mostly Hindu. Muslims usually cant be bothered to follow him.
      Me personally, I am skeptical of any babas or sants since the late medieval era!

      Delete
    25. "Captain doesnt recognize these post Gupta bhakti era dieties but does make an exception for Ayyappa..gee I wonder why ;-)

      I dont know what is his beef with Hanuman. If tomorrow it was proven that Hanuman was from Kerala instead of Jharkhand by way for Deccan and TN, he would push Hanuman to the front of the queue of those who should be worshipped.

      All said and done, I am least interested in captains idea of yoga,tantra, chakras, 18 strand dna rishi, vibrations, groovy vibes due to havanas, poojas etc because he does not conduct any of this himself and considers these to be "womans stuff" ala Nehru. " ------ LOL ysv :D U have this amazing skill of bringing out humour in an utterly disgusting subject like our capt :)

      capt's stand on Hanuman amazed me also,because way back in 2010-11 ,he was respectful of Hanuman,atleast not insulting or demeaning ,as I saw from one of his comments wrt Hanuman.And Hanuman might have been born and brought up in the areas around north-central india,but He did have south Indian cultural contacts too,like the RishyaMukh Parvat of Karnataka,for example.Maybe capt doesnt know of this link Hanuman has with the south.So I guess that from now on,after he reads this comment of mine.he might well change his attitude towards Hanuman :D

      Even I fail to understand why Ayappa should get an exception :P :P

      Regarding the bhakti era,surely it weakened the martial traits in many parts of india,however other aspects of this era were necessary,for example the social reformation movements .

      Delete
    26. JAM, it doesn't matter to capt if Hanuman has Karnataka links. He has no particular love for the rest of South India. If you show him that Hanuman has links with Kerala, he might probably relent.

      Delete
    27. anu

      lol , so any deity outside kerala is Rothschild creation

      Delete
    28. @chatbot

      pretty much the whole of world outside kerala has been created by rothschild alone,otherwise only kerala existed originally,and there was no need for any second place,if only R had not interfered into all this :) that is why I now realise,after reading capts blog,that R is an artist,architect,author,polyglot,engineer,scientist par excellence :D hence i have now somewhat come to respect this mythical entity R :)

      Delete
    29. lol jam
      I think R is alter ego captain himself

      Delete
    30. jam also if R is an artist,architect,author,polyglot,engineer,scientist par excellence then by that logic , captain is dirt under fingernail of the Rothschild . I think captain deep inside envy's R lol..

      Delete
    31. If all these can be atrributed to Rothschild, i am ready to consider R as an avatar of Vishnu for his/their contribution to Hindu culture!

      Delete
    32. @sonam

      I dont care for Shirdi or Satya Sai Baba but to each their own. I have yet to see any Islamic influence on Hindu devotees apart from the usual sarva dharma sambhava Nehruvian nonsense that the average Hindu believes anyway.

      One good thing about BJP influence is that Hindus are beginning to re examine their position of other religions being the same as Hinduism . Though I think that is more due to VHP and other religious militant outfits rather than BJP and RSS who believe sarvadharma to some degree or another. After all Guru Golwalkar himself said that he treats the Quran on par with the Vedas even as he abused Muslims. Sitaram Goel was the first to point out the stupidity of this position.

      Delete
    33. jam ysv anu and others I think we have decoded vadkayil as person
      but we have not decoded vadakayil as mallu here is where we will truly understand why he behaves in certain manner which are considered normal among mallus in general
      I will be addressing this shortly in a new thread
      I went through many mallu forums I have found vadakayil mannerism in general
      Is very typical. example 'If you ask a Keralite where they are from, they will say they are from Kerala.. and not India'. this explains lot of captains Kerala centric theories of history religion etc


      among states which have regional centric pride I have found mallus tamils
      Punjabis , marthis , bongs , lastly telgu people , I find kannda, telgu people mingle with people of other states by learning Hindi
      this is not the case with mallus, tamils mingle with other states

      u will find a mallus in the area of bureaucracy in centre like niramla sitraman etc

      u will Tamils in mostly area of science

      u will find kannada and telgu people in IT field

      u will find bongs in art and literature left leaning academics

      u will Punjabis in defence field

      I will continue this thread on other articles since it will cross 200 comments





      Delete
    34. @sonam

      Nirmala Sitharaman is Tamilian. She was chosen as Minister by BJP to improve their profile in TN. But I agree with your points here.

      Delete
    35. oops sorry , thanx premchandji for correcting my mistake
      very shortly i will decode mallu and other state dyamics

      Delete
  19. "Shiva, Vishnu, Indra, Vayu,Brahma, Durga etc can be find in the Vedas and Puranas which were compiled in the GUpta age." "this he considers as a cosmic allegory "
    only ayyapa is geniune in his own words LOL.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. All human avatars of Vishnu I think he said

      Delete
  20. YSV, capt is abusing you. http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/2017/11/hindu-holocaust-continues-capt-ajit.html?showComment=1511584654863&m=1#c4553559926664673310

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow, thanks Anu for this. Looks like that comment about his wife got under his skin. Who knows, maybe because its true.

      BTW he has no issue with Vivek Iyer who sent him death threats but really has it in for me.
      Similarly Vivek Iyer way back in 2013 didnt care for the captains ramblings but threatened to have me bankrupt, jailed and killed in no particular order.

      see below...this makes rather nostalgic lol


      PratikNovember 26, 2017 at 1:03 AM
      This ysv rao and vivek iyer have abused captain in the past.. god knows their fate !!!


      Capt. Ajit VadakayilNovember 26, 2017 at 5:56 AM
      I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST VIVEK IYER

      THE OTHER CREATURE WILL SUFFER AND DIE-- SLOW BURN FROM INSIDE

      http://koenraadelst.blogspot.ae/2012/12/vijayanagar-negationism.html

      windwheel said...
      I won't come after you Rao.
      You are shit.
      My contempt for you is without limit.
      Vadakayil and his family will over a course of years not months- suffer the karmic fruit of one's man error.

      JANUARY 4, 2013 AT 7:24 PM

      windwheel said...
      Veddikail
      look, as you may be aware, you are considered a Terrorist and your children, brain washed products of Terrorism.
      Since such a view is true, it has already been implemented.
      You and your associate YSR Rao have made many statements indicative of an animus and ongoing threat against India's Diplomatic Representation in the U.S and Elsewhere.

      Since I know you have no fighters and are are a cowardly little shit it follows that You will lose your property another way.

      You will be slapped to death. You and all yours.

      why?
      Because you have condoned the rape of a Bhramin lady, that too a Vadadeshi Vadama Iyer, posted at senior level of U.N>

      I have taken steps to protect my family. Your conspiracy with YSR Rao- a closet homosexual who tried to ingratiate himself with White Rapists- has been exposed.
      Mr. Rao has used such language as cancels any clam on Naturalization he might otherwise have.

      Worthless cunt, I think I'm gonna come and see you- you and your black cunts are smelly- I fucking see you and I will fucking take your EYES for Meenakshi's necklace.

      Delete
    2. @YSV

      gosh that was a pretty loaded abuse by vivek and capt doesnt have any problems with all that .and on the recent abuse targetted at u ,my gut feeling says that something u wrote recently about him has ignited his fire of vengeance afresh :)

      Delete
    3. so captain is our silent reader of ysv blogs !! . lol..

      ysv I wanted to ask this long time , did u and captain ever meet in real life . is your hate towards captain personal or as critic.

      Delete
    4. Iyer & capt seem to know each other personally. At least that is what is evident from some of their comments at Elst's blog. Capt gets rattled so easily. He claims to be a jivanmukta, who will attain Mukti and no rebirth, but gets agitated quickly if someone says anything against him? He doesnt seem to exhibit any signs of a man who is going to be a jivanmukta?

      Delete
    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    6. anu
      from the previous comments by ysv that is
      *************************************************************************
      "Wow, thanks Anu for this. Looks like that comment about his wife got under his skin. Who knows, maybe because its true.
      BTW he has no issue with Vivek Iyer who sent him death threats but really has it in for me.
      Similarly Vivek Iyer way back in 2013 didnt care for the captains ramblings but threatened to have me bankrupt, jailed and killed in no particular order.
      see below...this makes rather nostalgic lol"
      **************************************************************************

      I gather that captain used to be a supporter of ysv , but now both captain and this character iyer both hate ysv rao

      why did iyer issue death treat to ysv and why doesn't captain support ysv now?
      did all three ysv, iyer and captain ever meet each other in real world?

      Delete
    7. @Chatbot

      just had a thought reading this comment of urs,shouldnt u address this Q to YSV ?How will someone else know whether these three people have met each other or not ?

      Delete
    8. jam
      you have not followed my pervious comment I addressed these q and a to ysv see the comment before anu reply

      Delete
    9. We have not met each other in person. We first came across on Koenraad Elsts comments board in December 2012/Jan 2013 and we have been inseparable ever since LOL

      Delete
  21. Ysv, there is story of flood in Bible, Sumerian culture and I think even in India where Vishnu matsya's Avatar saves seven dudes (sapt rishis) . Was there really some mass cataclysm that happened 5k-6k years ago? (If it's true then one thing I can think of is the end of ice age which might have caused it but the timeline would completely go against mainstream)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. From Kunal Singh:

      Vishnu has incarnated himself several times. Whenever he incarnates in
      Hinduism, he naturally either incarnates as a deity or as a man. Any sage
      can choose to represent the incarnation of Vishnu as himself or his own
      deity. Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Narsimha were deity incarnations, as someone
      who originated and developed the deities, Manu in the case of Matsya,
      Prahlada in the case of Narsimha, attained the status of Vishnuhood. In the
      case of Vamana, Parasurama, Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Kalki, the incarnation is
      meant to be direct deification of the person having attained the status of
      Vishnuhood. Thus the tantra recognize ways of worshipping these figures and
      these figures have methods of attainment named after themselves as opposed
      to Manu who had associated his knowledge with a separate deity called
      'Matsya' or Prahlad associating his attainment with a separate deity called
      Narsimha And yes, there are techniques and procedures associated with
      Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, and Narsimha. It has nothing to do with the theory
      of evolution.

      Matsya is when Hinduism attains a through understanding of directions, thus
      Manu releases the fish into a bowl of water, as a Matsya yantra was
      typically a floating magnetic fish in a bowl, and slowly it outgrows the
      bowl and pervades the ocean (compass swinging in a bowl of water, eventually
      being used in marine navigation). He saves the Vedas, the Vedas themselves
      becoming associated with the four directions. The next incarnation supports
      the notion that directions have already been understood, as the yantra
      associated with Kurma associates directions with the Sanskrit alphabet.
      Varaha then 'solidifies' the understanding which has led to the greater
      understanding of the 'Earth' -- the former compass directions being
      associated with the Earth. Well, there's more to Varaha, than that,
      including the region of the patala loka (spiritual realm).

      Delete
    2. ...contd


      Hindu legends are not silly stories, and they are not symbolic of virtue or
      good over evil. Those who attempt that interpretation will always be
      confused by the contraditions when even the Devas seem fallible or even
      downright evil, and then of course the idiots would claim that the Devas
      were made fallible to make them more human. Hinduism is not literature. It
      is a carefully recorded explanation of the development of practices
      associated with spiritual energy.

      For example, take the colorful story of Indra enjoying his opulence in his
      court and the sage Brihaspati walking in. Indra forgets to pay respect to
      his 'guru' and he starts to lose his 'luster.' The Devas under him start
      becoming weak and now he Asuras grow stronger. Now an average idiotic Hindu
      Brahmin would more than gladly attempt to stand in for Brihaspati and insist
      that any Hindu would lose his luster too if he didn't pay respect to Him
      personally with quite a bit of material donation to support his 'simple'
      Brahmin life. Then the literary genius would come and say that the story
      could be interpreted in a thousand ways, such as opulence depending on
      simplicity, lack of virtue causing the downfall of the arrogant, etc. But
      none of these is the correct explanation, and one must guard against such
      desirous interpretations. The absolutely correct explanation is that your
      body's "Indra" would age and lose its 'luster' if you do not move your
      body's internal energy to the region of Brihaspati! As the main center
      ages, Indra, so would the rest of the Devas under him. Thus tantrics aka
      real Hindus 'pay respect to the Guru' before proceeding with further energy
      manipulation. It is for their own good, nobody else's. This is also the
      reason why Hindus are required to pay respect outwardsly to Brahmins in
      religious rituals. It is an outward expression of what should be internal
      practice. Thus the Brihadranyaka says that the Kshatriya is first respected
      by the Brahmin and then the Kshatriya holding the Brahmin to represent the
      Brahma, pays respect to him. Thus the Brahmin is supposed to represent the
      Brahma, head region, in Hindu ritual. It does not imply superiority or
      inferiority of anyone.

      Delete
    3. @YSV

      i will be damn honest,I was literally spellbound reading the piece written by Kunal :) _/\_ so deep insights into the evolution of philosophy of Hinduism.If possible,do continue sharing Kunal's pieces,as and when u deem fit. And Kunal's views resonate with mine,since I also believe Tantra has a deeper understanding of reality,the essence of creation etc.than vedas or upanishads.
      A large part of the Hindu mythology is symbolic ,its a type of representative language or art of speaking.for example the association of the spirally coiled snake with shiva indicates the prana shakti,which tantra believes is spirally coiled in nature.similarly the trident of Shiva becomes the three nerve tracts Ida,Sushumna&pingala.This is a form of representative portrayal of a deeper philosophy.And to be honest,I feel that even the serpent with 7 heads in xtianity probably indicate some deeper aspect which is connected with the snake of Shiva or indic philosophy.Why I am saying this is because a similar serpent guarded Buddha in his meditation with 7 coils(forgot the name ascribed to this serpent,Muchligu or something like that probably).THe root concept of this prana shakti is something we are yet to understand in terms of modern science.

      Delete
    4. jam I completely agree with you , this kunal singh has explained concept so beautifully , captain needs to learn a thing or two about santna dharma by looking at kunal singhs blogs

      Delete
    5. So, the 7-centre or 7 coils represented the seven chakras of the body. I wonder if the sapt rishis meant the same !! BTW, there was a guy known as Ra Uru Hu ,who passed away a few years ago, he supposedly got some some knowledge in his dream about "human design". According to "human design", post 1781, there was a mutation in humanity and humans changed from seven-centred (sapt chakra) beings to nine-centred ones. There are Gates and channels linking each centre,with each person having unique activations . The activation of gates/channels are based on person's date of birth,time ,place and planetary influence. He himself said that the information he received is an amalgam of Vedic astrology,Chinese I-ching and other concepts lol. In traditional astrology where only 7 planets are considered,human design also takes into account Neptune and pluto cycles.
      One can easily search for "human design chart" over net and get his/her design after entering his/her date of birth,place,time.

      (By the way ,don't attach much scientific meaning to the information above, consider this as time pass reading lol. ) But it is interesting that how there are stories of people getting scientific insights in dreams like Tesla, Mendeleev's periodic table,charak(or was it sushruta!) getting knowledge from dhanwantri in dreams and so on.

      Delete
    6. @Tim

      The concept of 9 chakras has been continuing in the aghora tradition far before 1781.The three extra chakras as per aghora are named Golata,Lalata&lalana(pretty strange sounding names,the last word though is a sanskrit word "lalana" meaning daughter). Hence i dont think any such evolution occurred in humans.If at all,I am only witnessing spiritual devolution instead of any betterment :) I understand very little of this subject,which itself is filled up with multiple interpretations,technicalities,and even confusions among different schools of thought(confusion aspect can be seen in certain abrahamic representations,where they have come close to deeper yogic essence and yet couldnt grab it fully). So it is not possible for me to say anything with certainty,however I dont think new energy centres can be produced as such.And the number of chakras vary according to the school of philosophy,it ranges from 6(Sahashrar is not considered a chakra in some cases,hence 6) to even 51(in the tantric philosophy of bengal,corresponding to 51 shaktipeeths or 51 letters of Sanskrit ).So the number of chakras in itself is a variable,for general purposes,the 6 most prominent in the flow of prana shakti constitute the 6 major chakras,however the whole of it is like a smooth transition like a continuous wave ,with actually an infinite number of minute chakras in between,as I read in one book expounding deeper aspects of yoga.

      Regarding the confusion point of abrahamic schools wrt to the study of prana shakti as I pointed out earlier,Swami Vivekananda has a pretty interesting view on Muhammad's deviant instructions in the quran.This is from the volume 1 of COmplete Works of Vivekananda,taken from the transcript of his speech on Rajayoga somewhere in USA : "The Yogi says there is a great danger in stumbling upon this state. In a good many cases there is the danger of the brain being deranged, and, as a rule, you will find that all those men, however great they were, who had stumbled upon this super conscious state without understanding it, groped in the dark, and generally had, along with their knowledge, some quaint superstition. They opened themselves to hallucinations. Mohammed claimed that the Angel Gabriel came to him in a cave one day and took him on the heavenly horse, Harak, and he visited the heavens. But with all that, Mohammed spoke some wonderful truths. If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths mixed with superstitions. How will you explain it? That man was inspired, no doubt, but that inspiration was, as it were, stumbled upon. He was not a trained Yogi, and did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the good Mohammed did to the world, and think of the great evil that has been done through his fanaticism! Think of the millions massacred through his teachings, mothers bereft of their children, children made orphans, whole countries destroyed, millions upon millions of people killed!
      So we see this danger by studying the lives of great teachers like Mohammed and others. Yet we find, at the same time, that they were all inspired. Whenever a prophet got into the superconscious state by heightening his emotional nature, he brought away from it not only some truths, but some fanaticism also, some superstition which injured the world as much as the greatness of the teaching helped."

      In these days,Vivekananda would have faced charges of insult to religious feeling of minorities,for the same speech.

      Delete
    7. My father,who is a doctor,has a pretty interesting thought wrt the concept of chakras.According to him,the chakras might well be signifying the important endocrine glands(this endocrine hormonal system is the core which controls our whole body).For example,according to him,the mooladhar might roughly correspond to gonads,the manipur can become pancreatic gland,or it might even mean the generalised endocrine system of abdominal organs,similarly the sahashrar becomes the pituitary/hypothalamus(the master gland) ,ajna is the pineal ,thyroid with correspond with Visuddha.Interestingly a similar view has also been suggested by an european medical scientist(right now i cant remember his name) who studied the tantric philosophy from a scientific mindset .This scientist differs in the attribution of glands or organs to chakras slightly with my father's options,however both of them think broadly alike.

      Delete
    8. JAM, I've also read in an old yoga book by Maureen Lockhart that chakras correspond to the endocrine glands in our body. I also found these articles on the net. http://blog.thewellnessuniverse.com/your-7-chakras-the-endocrine-system/
      http://www.chakras.info/chakras-glands/
      BTW, what do you think of Elst's hypothesis that Chakras and Kundalini originated in China?

      Delete
    9. JAM, i have some basic biology knowledge (i didn't write this before as i thought this is a history blog so stayed away from biology), i also came to the same assertion to what your father said :
      1. Muladhara - Adrenals as anu says in her link ( Incidentally, the largest endocrine glands in neonates is adrenals). Survival oriented chakra

      2. Hara - Gonads as associated with sexuality
      3. Manipur - Whole GI tract nervous system is associated with this. for eg, in modern medicine ,we now know that there are more than 500 million neurons in GI tract. There are some recently published studies on how gut bacteria and their metabolites can affect emotions,moods and even diseases like parkinson.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system
      4. Anahata - heart
      5. Visuddha - Thyroid + parathyroid as you said.(expression and creativity)
      6. Ajna - Imo pineal + dopaminergic system of the brain
      7. Sahasra - I am not exactly sure of this part but i don't think it's related to pituitary and hypothalamus. The pitu/hypo are relatively primtive parts in evolution, nearly all organisms have it ( it sounds more like a part of muladhar
      and hara), so sahasra has to be the parts of brain which only humans have supposedly developed. So, if at all it exists ,it would include "that anatomically modern part" that humans have + plus something just above brain which may be we can't see ( like Jesus's halo)

      Delete
    10. @anu&Tim

      thanks for those inputs.

      Tim whatever u are saying may well be correct.Ur explanation definitely seems strong on base.However just one thing i would like to supplement,whether or not animals have this prana shakti has not been ascertained as of now by the yoga schools.Opinions differ on this.Atleast some animals are thought to have a prana shakti ,maybe in its primitive form on the path to evolution.Snake and the elephant are thought to have such an energy.but all of this is mere speculation.

      Delete