Asturias and "just some chickens": The real cause of the Israeli Arab conflict
Apart from a few Arabists such as Daniel Pipes , I find it frustrating that too many commentators and analysts are too politically correct to discuss what lies at the core of Arab irredentism-their mentality that the entire Middle east belongs to them.
Fun fact: Before 1948 , naqba didn't refer to the catastrophe that was the foundation of Israel(the association of that word with expulsion of Palestinians started in the 1960s) but to 1492- The Reconquista of an Arab/Amazigh Muslim land by Spanish Catholics. Arabs prefer not to discuss this and sweep it under the rug . Osama Bin Ladens main gripes were kuffar control of Kashmir, Zionists in Palestine , the loss of Al Andalusia (Muslim Spain) and whiskey swilling bacon munching Americans on Saudi soil because the average Arab military were severely substandard and not capable of repelling Saddam's behemoth. Over time even Osama Bin Laden got the memo and as the Iraq war was dragging on he discovered that it was prudent to drop the Al Andalusia angle to further fracture the American coalition. He had achieved this by the Madrid bombing in 2004 which compelled the new government to beat a hasty retreat from Iraq.
The importance of deterrence is highlighted by a story of a mild mannered and somewhat dim-witted Bedouin.
One day a few thieves broke into his camps and stole some chickens. When his sons wanted to track and punish the culprits , he chided them for their hot-headed nature "it was just chickens, my boys , calm down"
A few days later they got more brazen and stole sheep and when the irate sons were sharpening their swords to deal with the thieves, the Bedouin once again urging restraint "it was just some sheep , calm down"
And then with a camel with predictable action from the sons and counter action by the father
Soon enough one of his daughters got raped . The Bedouin consumed by shame ,rage and vengeance approached his sons who were playing backgammon and drinking coffee. Shocked at their callous indifference he exclaimed "why are you relaxing in the camp and not avenging your daughter ,where is your sense of honor??"
They laughed and said "dont talk about honor old man, you had your chance when the chickens were stolen"
This is Asturias during Ummayad rule, surrounded by overwhelming Muslim military might with the sea on one side. Remind you of anyone today?
It is therefore interesting that the nakba is applied to both 1492 and 1948. To use another Arab analogy, Asturia and Israel were the camels nose under the tent. Its only a matter of time before the entire camel comes in.
There is of course the Islamic notion that once a land has been conquered by Islam, it should remained under Islamic rule for eternity and any reversion to the previous non Muslim owners is a catastrophe. This is really the Arab mindset which founds it way in the Quran. The reality is that most Arabs dont really care that much about Rohingyas, Babri Masjid, Uyghurs and what have you. Its like a blast radius of concern, the further the concentric circle from the Arab world the less they care. They let local Muslims deal with their situation as they see fit. They have more pressing problems at home
Another aspect is saving face- do note that those countries who have signed the Abraham Accords did so because they have not really faced Israel on the battle field and hence were not humiliated by them. Hence they dont lose face if they sign peace treaties with Israel. There is also the inconvenient matter that the GCC Arabs dont really see Levantines such as Palestinians and Lebanese as real Arabs
Wait a minute YSV you may say- didnt Egypt and Jordan whose militaries were thrashed repeatedly by Israel also sign a peace treaty? Sure it unlike the Abraham accords which was built upon decades of Israel working behind the scenes with the GCC countries, the Sinai and Oslo treaties were a top down imposition by the U.S government. While I do believe that Anwar Sadat and King Hussain were urbane enough to realize the futility of fighting Israel, their subjects do not agree - Sadat paid for his actions with his life and Jordan(>60% Palestinian) to this day is a tinderbox of economic and geopolitical discontent.
They are unable to digest that Arab land has been taken by non Arabs, even it is barely a stray scrap on the Eastern Mediterranean.
The only way for Israel to win this is to practice deterrence which Oslo and land for peace treaties only proved to Arabs that Israel was weak. Oslo was no win situation for all parties except the Clintons who built their various grifts including their foundation on that failed policy.
From the Arab POV, Oslo was where Bedouins had stolen chickens from a Jewish chieftain.Hardcore Likudniks tried to warn them but were rebuffed. And sure enough this culminated in rape of Jewish women in recent events, just like that parable. Jewish sons however aren't resigned to playing backgammon however, they want to restore deterrence by killing as many as theirs as possible. Babies too. Brutality is respected in the Middle east. It is a horrible thing but that's what it takes to win wars and establish deterrence. Mercy is seen as weakness- an invitation to steal chickens and rape.
Enough of all these unpleasant talks about war , rape and killing babies. Let us take a break and read some heart warming Pslams
“O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!” Psalm 137-1
Oh wait...
Ok how about the Prophets(Neviim)
Gather together, yes, gather, O shameless nation, before the decree takes effect —before the day passes away like chaff— before there comes upon you the burning anger of the Lord, before there comes upon you the day of the anger of the Lord. Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord. For Gaza shall be deserted, and Ashkelon shall become a desolation; Ashdod's people shall be driven out at noon, and Ekron shall be uprooted. Woe to you inhabitants of the seacoast, you nation of the Cherethites! The word of the Lord is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines; and I will destroy you until no inhabitant is left.
Zephaniah 2:1-15
ok....I am beginning to suspect all this is some Bronze age era beefs predating Judaism never mind Islam , which carried over various generations to the current age. Why superpowers want to get involved in local squabbles is beyond me. They get their fingers (two prominent fingers in 2001) but cant help themselves. Must be a form of Jerusalem syndrome on geopolitical steroids.
@YSV
ReplyDeleteDo you think Hezbollah is finished now that their leader is gone?
They are seriously crippled but not finished. There is no leadership as the others were finished off by the pager blitzkrieg. However they do have reserves of around 5 to 10 thousand , fighting age men. Exact numbers are hard to come by. The estimates of 100k+ in Hezbollah ranks are ridiculous. The real number is half that or lesser and most of these are just Shia men between ages 18 to 60 with Hezbollah party membership who own a gun or two. Those are actually battlefield ready and in shape are closer to the numbers I mentioned.
DeleteHowever the unPC aspect of war is that you need to kill civilians-particularly the young men, usually the rule of thumb is that if you finish a third of fighting age men-both combatants and non combatants- the fighting ends.
Rather than a ground invasion, Israel would be wise to fight via proxies through Maronites ,Sunnis and Druze and let their militias finish off the Hezbollah while occasionally providing air cover and logistical assistance. Israel also now controls the airport and ports of Lebanon and hence the iranian flow of arms and other supplies has come to an abrupt halt.
Because this will be a very dirty war for aforementioned reasons and Israel doesnt need any more negative publicity re civilian casualties. Let others do the dirty work.
Also a ground invasion would distract from their main goal of finish Hamas- they are beaten considerably but not down and out.
This whole business is one bombshell after another (pun intended). First Oct 7, then the pager madness and now Nasrallah is in the bottle.
DeleteBeirut seems to have developed a bad habit of going kaboom once in a while. First the 2020 port explosion which our dear truth exhumer/kalki avatar claims was a nuclear detonation by Israel. I mean WTF.
DeleteWhat is unsustainable cannot be sustained. The status quo that Israel had was built on many falsehoods and you saw that collapse on October 7th.
DeletePals could easily get a country tomm if they agree to have the settlements remain in place and give up their irredentist dreams (conquering entire Israel) but they choose not to and engage in constantly foolish actions believing that weak and cowardly Jews will succumb to - this was their rationale for October 7th. There was a faction in Hamas who actually thought that Israel would surrender! This sense of triumphalism spread to the entire Levant and Iraq where they sensed that victory was around the corner. Now they are learning the hard way that the "Zionist entity" is not weaker than a spiders web- in the poetic words of Hezbollah.
Same war, bloodshed and chaos is neccesary to establish a meaningful peace that will last decades.
Kalki avatar must be in advanced stages of grief that his heroes have been decimated. The 2020 was a nuclear explosion , lol I must have missed that- how he is this ignorant is beyond me.
Pity about Beirut , lovely city but the government is utterly incompetent- they have wrecked their economy (even as Lebanese people are one of the most entrepreneurial and it resides on the eastern Mediterranean) and allowed gangsters in the payroll of a foreign state to run roughshod over the country, what did they expect?
this have to be most ignorant and to most stupidest thing I heard and what that goofy crap at end? you are hindu afterall
ReplyDeletefirst of all it toke centuries for asturia and other christian ibera(yes there were other christian iberia too you forgot to mention that you ignorant hindu)
and also asturia have many peace treaties with muslims and one of the reason for downfall of al andalusia was the disunity of muslim and unitedness of christian iberia (not anymore) and islamic conquest of iberia was justified and just some chickens story is stupid the brothers didn't do anything when their sister get raped and also israel had us aid remember that and jordan have jerusalem literally look at ugyhur genocide in arabic wikipedia (arabs sure do CARE) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_of_the_Babri_Masjid#International_reactions
https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D8%B6%D8%B7%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%AF_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%87%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%8A%D8%A7#%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AA%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%AA and GCC arabs cared about palestine too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_impact_of_the_Gaza_war literally go google translate (english to arabic) Iran senting missle to israel in arabic and go to youtube and you see arabs loving iran for that
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_Rohingya_genocide On 7 January 2020, CAIR National Executive Director Nihad Awad condemned a tweet by the US Chinese embassy, saying that China was openly admitting to and celebrating forced sterilizations and abortions of Muslim Uyghur women by saying it had "emancipated" them from being "baby-making machines".[267] and also cmon it china, china has a stronghold of the world
this is just incoherent gibberish. Not just content wise(from what I could decipher) but format, punctuation ,grammar etc etc.
DeleteIt seems you are in a very agitated state due to my post. Its not the end of the world, go outside and breathe some fresh air. Dont spend too much time online.
Hi YSV, Was Operation Sindoor better executed than Balakot strikes? And what about the performance of Indian Airforce?
ReplyDeleteHonestly there is so much misinformation on both sides that it is hard to make any proper assessements now.
DeleteWe will have a clearer picture in a few months.
But on the whole, Pakistan's optics and claims were far worse than India. It is an international laughing stock after this..more so.
Apparently Kamal Hassan is a Tamil Iyengar Jew. And Thirukkural was written by the Rothschilds. Now I ve heard everything!
ReplyDeleteI guess captain doesnt like Ramanuja and the community he created- Iyengars because Brahmins were being created out of thin air
DeleteIt is quite amazing that the captain has a slavish devotion to Nambuthiris and their elite Brahmin status that he castigates anyone else as pretenders.
That said, Ramanuja was very heterodox in accepting anyone in the fold including Greeks ,Roman , Arabs as well!
Thirukural is a somewhat Nastik/ajivika inspired text and hence the captain percieves it as anti Vedic, therefore Rothschild.
A person who operates in binaries can only come to that conclusion
Anyway Kamalhassan is going off the deep end with his Tamil is the mother of Kannada comments. I dont know what is the point of all that.
DeleteFinally he has reunited with Mani Ratnam decades after Nayakan. Guess Suhasini has forgiven him for dumping Vani Vishwanath for Sarita
Suhasinis condition for marrying Mani Ratnam was he was not to work with KH again.
Alas, MR is a declining director atleast since 2010 and KH too has resorted to his standard hamminess. Nayakan is one of my favorite films(its less than ideal depiction of Telugus aside), I am very skeptical if Thug Life will come any close. But I will go watch for the heck of it.
Not just Ramanuja, I don't think he has any love lost for Tamils in general. It's because they dare to say that the language spoken in god's own country is a branch of Tamil! Malayalam is supposed to be the second oldest language spoken 10^infinity years ago when the Vedas were downloaded and the Upanishads installed by rishis from Kerala.
DeleteThat being said, I am surprised that a relatively knowledgeable individual like KH would spout this chauvinistic nonsense. Trying to pry the votes away from DMK, methinks.
"Thirukural is a somewhat Nastik/ajivika inspired text"
DeleteThat explains why the DMK has a hard-on for it. I remember learning Thirukkural at school and it wasn't enjoyable at all. The language is very archaic, so you have to learn it by rote as if it's written in a completely different language. And the Jainism-inspired strictures against booze and meat are tiresome. Captain goes for the Rothschild angle because one-third of Thirukkural is devoted to romance and sex. It follows the usual Indian system of dividing life into morality, making a living and pleasure. We know he thinks any mention of sex in Indian literature is the naughty work of those Rothschilds.
Probably one of the better explanations on the peculiar nature of Thirukurral I have come across is by an SL Tamil contributor on Quora, Siva Loganathan
Delete"Thiruvalluvar was a maverick individual and given the didactic nature of his work was probably influenced by northern Jainism with its strong emphasis on ahimsa (nonviolence) and renunciation of worldly pleasures hence his views on such matters are not an accurate reflection of the popular Tamil culture that has always existed. Ethical veganism originated in east India and has nothing to do with Tamil culture which is why Sramanic religions which did not adapt to Tamil cultural ethos but expected the locals to adapt to them didn’t last long in the Tamil land because they opposed popular folk customs. Indigenous Tamil cultural ethos, which is rooted in life-affirming and earthly values, is best reflected in the earlier Sangam poems, which glorify war-waging, love-making and toddy-drinking meat-eaters.
Evidence indicate that Jains had reached the Tamil country before Brahmins did but explicit references to Jains in the Sangam corpus are absent whereas Brahmins are mentioned. This is because the poems celebrate the indigenous culture which the Jains opposed whereas the early Brahmins seemed to have embraced by officiating war sacrifice and funerary rituals (involving cutting up of bodies and burial). Indigenous priests of war deities such as Murukan and Korravai would engage in sacrificial worship, exorcism and divination rituals involving toddy-intoxicated frenzied dance and beat on war drums made of animal skin. The Jains of early Tamil society seemed to have considered these customs to be immoral, thus the indigenous priest (pulaiyaṉ) of the Tamil country, who had been held in high esteem by the locals, came to be called iḻipiṟappiṉōṉ or “low-born” worthy of afterlife in hell due to the influences of Jain eschatology. For example, the Jain text Sūyagaḍaṃga Sutta (c. 4th-3rd century BCE), with regards to occult practices, declares:
Some men differing in intellect, will, character, opinions, taste, undertakings, and plans, study various evil sciences; viz. (the divination) … from changes in the body, … from seeds; … incantations, … oblations of substances; … the art of Cāṇḍālas, of Śabaras, of Draviḍas, of Kaliṅgas, of Gauḍas, of Gāndhāras; ... These and similar sciences are practised (by some men) for the sake of food, drink, clothes, a lodging, a bed, and various objects of pleasure. They practise a wrong science, the unworthy, the mistaken men. After having died at their allotted time, they will be born in some places inhabited by Asuras and evildoers.[1]
Thus in the Tamil country untouchability based on the concept of “impurity” may have been influenced ironically by the ahimsa principle of the Jains which considered certain local practices to be immoral.
Vast majority of Tamils are not adherents of Jainism as its ascetic precepts would have never attracted a popular support but stick to their indigenous forms of worship which may even require animal sacrifice. However, Thirukkural is respected by all Tamils regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof for its universal and ethical principles."
https://qr.ae/pAZjCG
It seems that the so called Kalabhra invasion was really an internal revolt by peasant folk egged on by Sramanics against institutions such as Brahmadeya where the formers lands would be redistributed by kings to Brahmins and often they were compelled to work for the Brahmin landlords as serfs
DeleteSome DMK folks are quite critical of even the Chola and Pallava rule from a social justice perspective for this reason.
The inscriptions of that era were in Prakrit/Pali as those were liturgical and administrative languages of Jain and Buddhist kings and clergy.
And its possible they were aided in this by opportunistic Jain kings from either Karnataka or Orissa.
Thirukkurral was probably composed in this milieu
However Jainism tends to considerably self abnegating so Thirukurrals celebration of warfare and romance doesnt completely fit in that life style
Though in time it did affect south Indian culture considerably. The staid and reserved upper caste culture is a far cry from that of Sangam society where there was a sort of Valentines Day in honor of Manmadha and young men and women danced together not unlike a prom! Jainism is likely responsible for this. A Chinese observer noted that the subjects of the Jain Rashtrakutas werent particularly lively and were rather dour, they only lived for war , not any sort of pleasure, even board games compared to his countrymen back home
"Sramanic religions which did not adapt to Tamil cultural ethos but expected the locals to adapt to them didn’t last long in the Tamil land because they opposed popular folk customs."
DeleteInterestingly the Tamil word for God kadavul was derived from Jainism.
"but explicit references to Jains in the Sangam corpus are absent whereas Brahmins are mentioned."
This is puzzling because many Sangam texts were infact written by Jains themselves. It's likely that it was the Jains who brought literacy into TN. The Sangam text Seevaga Chinthamani for example was written by a Jain monk. There is a legend that this monk was shamed by other monks for writing an immoral text whose hero dates multiple women. The monk commited suicide as a result. An early form of cancel culture, if you prefer.
"the indigenous priest (pulaiyaṉ) of the Tamil country, who had been held in high esteem by the locals, came to be called iḻipiṟappiṉōṉ or “low-born""
Even to this day, the priests of many kula devata temples are from lower castes, not Brahmins.
There are some strange similarities between Tamil and Kannada. It's likely that the Kalabhra invasion - whatever form it took - brought Kannada influences to Tamil. In the Kongu region these influences are even more pronounced. But this probably comes from the Wodeyar era, when the Kongu region was under Kannada rule.
I didnt know that about kadavul. Interesting
DeleteJains in Karnataka particularly in Southern Kanara are not associated with vegetarianism! Tuluvas sacrifice chickens and goats to their ancestor spirits and demigods (Bhutas) and some offer the same to Tirthankaras!
The vegetarian caste in Karnataka are Lingayats who are anti Vedic Shaivas. What occurred is an odd transference in both cases where the earthy meat eating , toddy drinking worshippers of indigenous gods adopted Jain Tirthankaras as head of their pantheon and Shaivas(generally associated with meat eating) who were heavily influeced by Jain lifestyle made vegetariansm as a core part of their identity. I suspect Saiva Vellalars became vegetarian in the same manner.
Vellala historians who were cozying upto the British for positions in the administration played up the industrious, peaceful and vegetarianism aspect of Dravidian civilization so as to not ruffle any feathers
Meanwhile a Brahmin scholar, M. Srinivas Ayyangar, ironically, took a different reading of Tamil history...
"Tamils were, like the Assyrians and Babylonians, a
ferocious race of hunters and soldiers armed with
bows and lances making war for the mere pleasure of
slaying, ravaging and pillaging. Like them the Tamils
believed in evil spirits, astrology, omens and sorcery.
They cared little for death. The following quotations
from the above work will bear testimony to the
characteristics of that virile race:
(l) Garlanded with the entrails of enemies they
danced with lances held in their hands topside down.
(2) They set fire to the fertile villages of their enemies;
(3) and plundered their country and demolished their
houses.
(4) The devil's cook distributed the food
boiled with the flesh of the slain, on the hearth of
the crowned heads of fallen kings and stirred with
the ladle of the bangled arm."
However these lurid and ghastly descriptions possibly serve the purpose of the "civilizing" effect of later Brahmin influence
This Jain lifestyle had an effect on most priestly castes . And the respectable ones anyway followed suit and refrained from alcohol and meat offerings. Otherwise even to this day you will find sacrifical altars in many if not most south Indian temples including Tirupati. A vestige of a bygone era
Those priests who abided by the lifestyle got to manage and preside over the rituals of large ,famous temples such as Brihadeeswara, Chidambaram, Venkateswara etc
There wasnt really much status and money associated with rural kul devtas and hence lower castes would worship them in the usual manner. Compare these to the mega church style Tirupati swimming in moolah. I am surprised a CEO hasnt been appointed yet. Everything there is so corporatized already..
I saw a pic of Madurai Veeran where the prasad was a bottle of Guinness. My Irish friends got quite a kick when they saw that. For the life of me , I cant find the link now.
kuldevtas are very useful for finding out the real caste of someone. There was a prominent Tambram on Quora who mentioned off hand that his kuldevta was Ayyanar. When others started pointing out that Ayyanar is associated with Vishwakarmas and they had a habit of Sanskritzing themselves as Brahmin during Vijayanagar and later British rule, he shut down the comments section.
In the Kongu region of course Kannada influence is more apparent since it borders Karnataka. But I dont think you need a Kalabhra influence for the similarities between Tamil and Kannada. They are both sister or cousin languages, depending on which linguist is making the Dravidian language tree.
Hale Kannada apparently had a mutual intelligibility with Tamil appoaching 50 to 60%. It since then was drastically Sanskritized and in the northern part Turko Persianized as well.
"This Jain lifestyle had an effect on most priestly castes . And the respectable ones anyway followed suit and refrained from alcohol and meat offerings."
DeleteI believe you mentioned earlier that S Indian Brahmins were originally Agamic priests who were Sanskritized later. So your point is that Brahmins follow a vegetarian teetotaller lifestyle because of Jain influence? But N Indian Brahmins are also vegetarians, are they not?
"Hale Kannada apparently had a mutual intelligibility with Tamil appoaching 50 to 60%."
Which era was this- Old or middle Tamil? Because Old Tamil is so different from modern Tamil, you can practically call them different languages.
My position is pretty unpopular but what I can as per the purely Vedic definition, it is accurate:
DeleteUnless youre a Shrauta, youre not really a Brahmin. So technically there are only two Brahmin communities in India- Nambuthiris of Kerala and Andhra Shrautas of east godavari district.
Manuvadis should note that Manu emphasized the same.
What we know as Brahmins today are of agamic traditions. A lot of these people had different titles such as Bhatta, baarpna,pantulu, joshi, pandit,acharya, involved with some aspect of fortune telling, astrology, palmistry, temple architects or even sculptors.
Brahmins for a myriad of reasons became a coveted brand all across ancient India and many related and parallel professions sought to adopt it. By this time in the post Maurya era, the Brahmins ceased to conduct animal sacrifices and eat meat. As they started migrating all across India, syncretization followed. They were in Tamil areas relatively early and they appeared to have readopted meat eating as they merged with indigenous priests who werent as affected by Shramana lifestyle.
Soon Agamic would adopt Sanskrit hymns and rituals and repurpose them for non Vedic dieties and call themselves Brahmins in the process. In the meantime a Shrauta fellow Shankaracharya and his contemporary ritualist Madan Misra(this means mixed btw..so much for pure Brahmin lineage) pretty much blessed this state of affairs. He wanted to make some sense of the syncretization and hence his schools of worship. Keep in mind that till about 600 years ago, Shaivas would never frequent a Vaishnava temple and Vice versa,same goes for other sects. The opening scene of Kamalahasans Dasavatharam where an Iyengar defends his temple against a fanatical Shaivite king is likely based on true stories. This is still the case in Bali. Bali is even stricter, different castes have their temples and gods associated with them.
Vijaynagar facilitated further syncretization the result of which is what we see today.
A lot of these priests were often carnivorous but the piety and self abegnation of the shramanic religions changed their outlook, they were also their competition when it came to royal benefactors. I suspect that warrior kings wished to live virtuously through monks and pundits by generously endowing them with land grants, gold , crops , houses and the like. Hence it may have rubbed them the wrong way if the morally superior types were engaged in earthly delights !
A lot of north Indian Brahmins are simply glorified goondas who got Brahminized relatively recently. And their behavior reflects the same to this day. Bhumihars are the best example of this phenomenon.
Vivekananda observed that north Indian brahmins gorged on flesh while south Indian counterparts abstained. This shows that the transition to a Brahmin lifestyle wasnt yet complete.
Even in some south Indian Brahmin communities such as GSB they eat fish and Brahmanized Sat Shudra communities like Chettiars are champions when it comes to spicy chicken dishes.
Anytime you see a parasurama story with regard to their Brahmin origin, be a tad suspicious . Not a rule of thumb but a useful guide.
Hale Kannada is similar to Old Tamil. So the contemporary counterparts wont have such a high degree of similarity due to drastic changes over the years.
"So technically there are only two Brahmin communities in India- Nambuthiris of Kerala and Andhra Shrautas of east godavari district."
DeleteI read somewhere that Nambuthiris originate from a place called Namboor in coastal Andhra.
"In the meantime a Shrauta fellow Shankaracharya and his contemporary ritualist Madan Misra(this means mixed btw..so much for pure Brahmin lineage) pretty much blessed this state of affairs."
And this is called the Smartha tradition. If all Brahmins became Smartha, why only some of them(mostly TamBrahms) call themselves Smartha Brahmins?
"Keep in mind that till about 600 years ago, Shaivas would never frequent a Vaishnava temple and Vice versa,same goes for other sects."
This continued until relatively recently. Some Thevars are Vaishnavites(I dunno why). My grandparents remember a time when they would turn their face away when walking past a Shiva temple to show their contempt.
"A lot of north Indian Brahmins are simply glorified goondas who got Brahminized relatively recently. "
I noticed that the Vedic chanting of N Indian Brahmins is not really as good as the S Indians. Now I know why. Are there any N Indians at all who descend from the pure Srauta tradition who are still around today?
Thevars take pride in their position of "Setupati" -guardians of Ramas bridge. They are ardent Rama devotees which is one of the reason Periyar couldnt make much of a dent in the southern areas dominated by them.
DeleteAs syncretization/mapping of Rama with Vishnu occured via avatar system, I suppose it was logical of them to become Vaishnavas.
I have heard of Nambuthiri origin in Andhra. I was intrigued coudnt find anything apart from passing circumstantial evidence. More research is required here. But it is likely that the first Parasurama temple was in Andhra. Both of these conclusions would make the captain as he really dislikes us for whatever reason. But then he doesnt have any kind word about any ethnic group apart from his own and curiously- Pathans.
FOr sure there are many who DESCEND from shrautas in north India but they dont practice anymore or merged with other non Vedic Brahmins whether in the north or migrated to and married with south Indians but not Nambuthiris as they were already quite provincial by the medieval era.
Re Shankaracharya, all smarthas are Brahmins but not all Brahmins are Smartha.
Here are more details: Long read, dunno if all this checks out but food for thought
Deletehttps://qr.ae/pAcyel
What are some misunderstandings about Hinduism that you wish you could clear up?
Vyuha Karmin
Wayfarer3y
Do not believe anyone who says Hinduism has no pope, no sacred laws, no rules and duties, no headoffice, is not book-bound — because this is the Sangh narrative. Its a lie.
Clearing misunderstandings below:
(note: these misunderstandings were deliberately created and propagated by vested interests who somehow wanted to become brahmins and rulers (i.e., take over land) in British Raj).
1 . Hinduism is a geographic term.
Wrong!
Hindu is a geographic term, not Hinduism.
Hindu was coined by the Persians to indicate land on the other side of Sindhu river.
Hinduism was coined by the British to indicate the religion of Smartism.
When British Raj was formed, they needed laws for administration. They couldn’t apply Christian Laws as Indians were not Christians.
The Smarthas fooled the British into believing that Shankaracharyas are Popes, and Dharmashastras (like Manusmriti) are Sacred Laws applicable to the entire sub-continent, because as per Smarthas all Indians are ‘Hindus’! And must obey laws which they (the Smarthas) decided.
Thus the British and Smarthas together created the Anglo-Hindu Laws, which they applied to Vaishnavas, Shaivas, Shaktas, numerous tribal belief systems, folk religions, believers in various village and protector gods without defined practices, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Lingayats and Shia Muslims.
As you can see all of these are different belief systems and yet the Smarthas pulled off the biggest heist of all time (by projecting all are ‘Hindus’). Basically they used a geographic term and made a religion out of it, and called it Hindui’sm’.
Since such Smartha claims were utter lies, and since they were utterly corrupt in dispensing verdicts under Anglo-Hindu Laws, they were removed entirely from British Courts. Anglo-Hindu Laws too were amended.
Since then, Smarthas created Sangh, and promoted Smartism under the name of Hinduism. Basically they want to replace Constitution of India with Manusmriti (and they want to be called brahmins). They call it Hindutva, because they cannot use the term ‘Hinduism’ anymore.
This is because, in the British Raj itself, after Smartha Law officers were thrown out (by Anti-Brahmanism movements), the Anglo-Hindu Laws were amended to create Hindu Personal Laws, which no longer depended upon Varna. Meaning, laws were dispensed based on your community practice, not on your Varna.
contd....
DeleteAlthough laws were no longer based on Dharmashastras like Manusmriti, the term Hindu remained because it was an amendment to a legal act. Verdicts under the Hindu Personal Laws were dispensed by the judge without the use of Smartha Law officers, Smarthism, and Dharmashastras like Manusmiti. Since then, the term ‘Hinduism’ came to be used socially to indicate all religions of the subcontinent.
Therefore, we must be very careful when we use the term Hinduism. Legally, it still refers to Smartism (though we have Modern Hindu Laws today) — this is because Modern Hindu Laws (and the term Hinduism thereof) are still based on earlier acts and later amendments. But socially, it refers to all religions of the sub-continent.
Therefore, never get fooled by the Sangh narrative.
I am a Hindu, but I am not a Smartha, hence I would not mention that I am a follower of Hinduism. If a document wants me to be precise, I would write I am a follower of Shavism, or Buddhism, or Vaishnavism, or Shaktism (based on what I am currently following. Or I would mention Freethinker, since most times I follow all beliefs, rituals and philosophies).
2. Hinduism cannot survive without castes.
Wrong!
As is clear above, its only Smartism that cannot survive without castes.
Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism, Lingayatism, Shaktism, village gods, tribal gods are open to all. Anyone can train to become a priest.
There is no such thing as tantrika brahmin, agamic brahmin, smartha brahmin, siddhanta brahmin. These are all new terms.
Tantriks follow Tantras and were called simply that Tantriks.
Acharyas follow Agamas, Siddhantins follow Siddhanta. Priests of these religions were called Acharyas (or Shivachariers) and Nambimars (even Vaikhanasa Vaishnava priests were called Nambimars all through the Vijayanagar period).
Smarthas were policemen who maintained law (as law-keepers) just like Islamic religious police today.
But during British Raj, things changed. All above started claiming to be brahmins and established religious institutions to socially establish themselves as such.
Today, caste-wise, religions can be complex.
Shaiva Siddhanta was open to all, and still is for most part. Due to politics in British Raj, the community of Vellalars became more and more closed and yet absorbed several communities as sub-castes or sub-sects. Today, the situation is that any Vellalar can train in Shaiva Siddhanta (in institutions called Adheenams) to become a priest but not non-vellalars.
Vaishnavism is today a closed religion with both Vadakalais and Thenkalais following Smartha rules of caste but Vishitadvaita as philosophy, and following their own mutts.
....
Delete3. Hinduism has no pope.
Wrong!
The pope (or highest head) for Smarthas are the Shankaracharyas. There is one Shankaracharya for each region which is the Regional Headoffice (Shringeri for South India, Dvaraka for West India, Puri for East India, and Badri for North India).
They follow laws called Dharmashastras which dictate Varna (birth-based heredity occupations). All such dharmashastra were former feudal laws composed under different kingdoms for legal-and-administrative purpose but is considered a religion today ! (by Smarthas).
The pope (or highest head) for Vaishnavas are the Jeeyars. They too follow birth-based dharmashastra laws.
The pope (or highest head) for Shaiva Siddhantins are the Paramacharyas. They follow pure Shaivism and strict rules of their religion. Their headoffice is called the Adheenam
The Vaishnava Siddhantins (i.e., Vaikhanasas) have a Chief Priest.
Of course, all these these have no locus standing to dictate religion or laws or practices or duties to people who follow folk religions, tribal religions, and various indigenous beliefs. However, the Sangh has been trying to homogenize people; and has been introducing rituals into their belief systems, to be conducted by a brahmin.
Basically, India has a poaching system. The Christian missionaries, the Islamic missionaries, and the Sangh, all try to convert tribes (tribal religions) and villagers (folk religions). None want to leave them alone, because they constitute 10% to 70% of population and are a big vote-bloc.
All said, I would urge you to appreciate philosophies within Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Shaktism (all of which can be complex); and philosophies within various tribal faith forms (simple, uncluttered, beautiful and calming).
Another good thing is, one can be an atheist or can follow extinct religions like Ajivikas today. Nobody can prevent anyone from following what they want. You can revive ancient rituals, or start following archaic long-forgotten rules.
You can also create your own religion, like Prabhupada created ISKCON based on Pancharatra. It is different from traditional Pancharatra because Prabhupada merged thoughts of Catholicism with Pancharatra.
Of-course, all faith forms are book-bound, whether it is the Gita, or belief in the Ramayana and Puranas. Those who follow tribal and folk gods have no books because their stories have not been written yet. Just because they have no books, does not mean their stories are unstructured and hence, their faith forms are not book-bound.
And no, Gurus are not the most important people socially. The Shankarachaya is Guru to Smarthas, not to others. The Jeeyer is Guru to Vaishnavas, not to others. Most Indians pray at home and in temples. They have no gurus. Its utterly rubbish to claim “ If God appeared next to the guru we would bow only to the guru and ignore the God”.
Its not a good idea to rely on foreigners who have not lived in India exploring its breadth and depth; and instead restricted themselves to one (sangh) narrative.
Hope this clears most misunderstandings.
Thank you.
Very interesting points. But I dunno if we can say that the Sangh is Smartha Brahmin. It is essentially a Bania enterprise AFAIK.
DeleteAlso this ties in with your earlier point about N Indian Brahmins being glorified goondas. The Sangh were originally thugs whose job was to provide security for Congress meetings. So it makes sense that N Indian Brahmins enrolled in large numbers. The author of the above is probably Tamil, and he assumes that N Indian Brahmins are similar to TamBrahms, hence N Indians must be Smarthas.
DeleteThe ideological framework is Brahmin but baniyas provide the heavy lifting. While Brahminized goondas and those of warrior lineage such as Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs provide the muscle.
DeleteGetting all these people to work together I must say is an impressive task since they didnt always see eye to eye. I guess the dislike and threat of Muslims and modernism for that matter is enough to bind them for now.
The author is certainly pro DMK Vellala Tamil but there are some nuances. He doesnt spare Vellalas either. He doesnt castigate the Shrautas or Iyers or Iyengars who were just ritualist priests. His particular gripe is the Telugu and Tamil Brahmins from an adminstrative background who happened to cluster around the Fort of St George whose fathers and grandfathers passed themselves off Brahmins and kicked the ladder underneath using Anglo Hindus laws which they helped formulate. Declaring others Shudras and so on.
DeleteHe is not so much talking about north Indians here but some south Indian brahmins who are pro sangh, pro child marriage, sati etc. These are the sanatana dharma lot. An invented term in the 19th century by feudal reactionaries during the chaos of British social reforms and upheavals. It entails a defense of all traditions, good or bad associated with Hinduism- no compromises. Remember when the British sought to increase the minimum age of marriage for girls to 12, from 8, Lokmanya Tilak nearly had a seizure!
However many RSS types certainly were inspirted by Smarthism and Shankaracharya. Many Sarsanghchalak were actually of south Indian origin such as Hedgewar (dehastha brahmin) and Deoras.(Raju)
One of the reasons the Dravidian movement was a flop in SL Tamil areas was due to their fervent religiosity for Rama et al but also it was more egalitarian soceity and Brahmins didntt have any disproportionate power- even as temple priests most of whose duties were performed by Saiva Vellalar.
In another post the author praises Shankaracharya for his philosophical insights and feeble attempts at social reform (feeble because he was a monk, not a social activist) and claims that his institution has been corrupted / that he never intended to set up long standing mutts in a Vatican style organization
YS can you clarify why Israel is unable to track any of its people held as hostages in Gaza. Why is Mossad not able to do anything to track and find them
ReplyDeleteI hope one lesson people learnt since October 7th is that Mossad is not some ultra machiavellian global puppet master which has everyone under its boot and knows when you eat, sleep, bathe, fornicate or what you think about while doing the same.
DeleteIf anything facebook and amazon have far more access to these than Mossad, CIA etc. Whether they share much of that with intelligence agencies, that depends on whether you consider facebook a CIA operation given the Palantir technologies(A CIA sponsored Silicon valley venture capitalist firm) involvement in the same.
Do keep in mind that intelligence agencies are usually notoriously territorial and they dont like to share information. Since information is power. And the CIA and Mossad historically did not get along at all. Part of this is due to CIA run by snooty upper class patrician WASPs who saw Jews as middle men riff raff. Some of this is alluded to in movies such as Charlie Wilsons War and to some extent in Spielbergs Munich.
Also Mossad is not really that involved in Gaza since the territories come under the realm of internal security agencies such as Shin Bet
Anyhow, any intelligence agency receives terabytes of data each day . Most terrorists are quite sly in how they conduct themselves in phone calls or chat rooms. Its all coded messages and allusions. Analysts interpret the data and the chief on intel has to make the decision given various constraints-field operatives, budget, potential political fallout on whether to act on it or not and a myriad of other variables.
Organizations like Hamas run a really tight ship. They keep electronic communication to a bare minimum. Israels humint(human intelligence) in the Gaza strip was always relatively sparse compared to the west bank anyway where every Tom,Dick and Harry seems to be an asset.
Add to this the chaos of war and the complications in extrication of hostages even in the best of conditions and it becomes rather difficult.