Tuesday, June 9, 2015

Mr Sabhlok, It is not I who is superficial and engages in shoddy research


Mr. Sanjeev Sabhlok while admirable in his quest for good governance and economic policy for India is rather lacking in knowledge of Indian history and religion. And what is worse he is unwilling to entertain counter arguments.

Recently he caught the Aryan Invasion Theory bug and a derivative of the same is the notion that Indian was routinely defeated due to its lack of a good cavalry.

I retorted here

As you can see, he might as well be completely oblivious of my post. He just goes and repeats the same talking points even if I had refuted his argument.

And when I went and criticized his views on AIT somehow he turned me into Hindutvadi even as I criticized Hindutvadis more than once on his forum, not to mention here as well!

And then he complains about "personal attacks" I made about him!

The "personal attack" he keeps whining about ,which him being so thin skinned he didn't even publish, was something along  the lines of me pointing out his hypocrisy of being for free speech while running a strictly moderated blog. Also I mentioned out the Hindutvadis are more fools than demons and India does not require his exorcism services for the same.

Earlier when I asked him if mining for tonnes of untapped gold in India would be a good idea(as per his recommendation), he promptly exited the discussion saying he was too busy.

In an earlier post I maintained that Vedic religion wasn't necessarily hostile to idol worship(his position) all the while showing that the legends and customs of the Vedic people to prove my point, he simply kept repeating his points like a parrot and asked me how I could dare to contradict Dayananda Saraswati. Amazing that he would quote Hindutvadi extra ordinaire Saraswati who believed that all Muslims and Christians should either undergo shuddhi or be evicted from India!
SO Sabhlok's MO is to quote a Hindutvadi to substantiate his position all the while bashing each and every Hindutva figure and belief because it goes against his vision of India!


Mr Sabhlok keeps being mystified as to why his political party never seems to come to fruition. Regrettably it appears that the captain and Mr. Sabhlok are the different sides of the same coin of Indian nationalism. Each intolerant of countering beliefs ,misrepresenting their opponents positions due to them misunderstanding or otherwise and being thoroughly uninterested in debate or discussion

At this rate, Mr. Sabhlok will be relegated to the status of Ralph Nader of Indian politics-if he is lucky! Atleast unlike Mr. Sabhlok, Ralph Nader lives in the country where he has formed a party!


206 comments:

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    1. @ YSV

      It is wrong that Mr Sabhlok has moderated your pov .I have replied to him ,but chances are that even my comment would not see the light of day on his blog :) Anyway I am posting it here for others to see .I have kept the logic simple and lifted the flaws straight from his own post :





      @ Mr Sabhlok

      """ "So please explain that if the mythology of the Rig Vedas was first invented in India, why do we have SEVERELY DISTORTED OR FRAGMENTARY versions across the middle East? Tell me why these people managed to "forget" the basic technology of the Vedas." - As I can see from your writing style that you are heavily biased for the AIT,though always claiming to have a neutral ground on this,I would like to ask you a few questions from your own reasoning.What exactly makes you so confident that rig veda originated from middle east ,and was later distorted ,while the original version still runs in India?It can well be the other way round,ie,the original version went to the middle east from India and was later distorted under the influence of an alien culture.This point that you are throwing up only shows your childishness in defending your argument by hook or crook.

      "The contradiction is this: that Rig Vedic people were super-competent (as good as a digital record) in transmitting the Vedas within India, but super-incompetent when it was "transmitted" outside. That is an impossibility. I can attest to it myself. The system is absolutely fool proof: if any one person ever took it out of India, it

      would have been found in the same shape and form, 100%, no exception." - Is this the only line of contradiction that comes into your mind Sir? Abrahamic religions flourished in the middle east,hence even if I assume that the rig veda was transmitted without distortions to mideast,still the dominance of abrahamic religions would surely have invaded it.You can be a supporter of AIT if you like but atleast be neutral in your logic.Dont apply it according to the way that suits your purpose.That's what the politicians of India do,and if I am not wrong you despise them for this(though even in the act of contempt for political parties I have found you to be somewhat selective ,but here in this debate I wont hold that against you as the topic is different). .

      "The only explanation that works: that they did NOT take these ideas out of India. Instead, they documented and froze the ideas that had come into India." - So ridiculous an explanation/inference based on the above set of logic which are biased to the core in favour of AIT.

      A final point Sir, just because I am differing with you candidly and harshly should not mean that my comment does not show up on your blog.When you are bringing up such lame logic in support of AIT (and even drawing conclusions on the basis of that) you should extend the courtesy to non AIT people to express their opinion as well. """

      (end of my comment in Sabhlok's blog)


      YSV I would also like to have your views on whether my line of thinking is right or wrong in this subject.And yeah I fully support OIT over AIT.

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    2. @ Iniyavel & YSV

      "But Venkateswara, I have a doubt. If not Gold Standard, then what is good to sustain an economy? You mentioned Nixon moved away from Gold Standard and gave the Central Government runaway power to print fiat money" - Iniyavel if i am not wrong,then I think YSV actually is in favour of keeping the gold standard instead of removing it for fiat money .He has appropiate logic also for this,as he replied to me : " Gold standard is a lesser evil which keeps the central bank in check. Its best to have neither and but the current situation where you have only the central bank tinkering with the economy as per its wishes is the worst scenario."

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    3. @JAM

      There is conclusive evidence that the Rig Veda was composed in India- Punjab to be specific. There may have been a back and forth relationship between the Vedic people and Avestan people. Both considered themselves as arya and everyone else anarya. However I agree with Sabhlok that the basic cultural elements like Mithra-Varuna, Indra slaying Vrtra etc came from outside India. There is plenty of textual evidence to support this view, but almost no material evidence to support either AIT or OIT. Besides, AIT is a strawman- no modern scholar believes that there was an invasion ala the Hunnic invasion in Europe, rather a cultural assimilation may have happened.

      Although Koenraad Elst has an amazing grasp of classical Indian culture and history, I believe he is mistaken about OIT. He relies on the amateur work of bank manager Shrikant Talageri whose research has been heavily critized by linguist Michael Witzel.

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    4. @ PremChand

      The Mithra-Varuna or Indra's slaying of Vrtra might have moved from India to other parts as well in their modified forms.I don't think Rig Veda has actually assimilated anything from other cultures.But I am not in so much of a disagreement with you as I am with Sabhlok's stupid and incoherent logic while suppporting AIT.Just look at his reasoning :)

      "rather a cultural assimilation may have happened." - This is my exact pov.While Sabhlok argues that everything has come down from mideast.

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    6. @ YSV & others

      See the reasoning Sabhlok is following in his reply to me :

      "Well, that’s precisely the point I’m making. That RV CAN NEVER BE DISTORTED under any circumstances. It does not allow for any innovation. It MUST be reproduced in exactly the same form and shape. The fact that there are so many proto-Vedic gods and ideas found strewn across the middle East, Babylon and Iran 4500-3500 years ago (and many with advanced technology such as a script, which India did not get till around 3000 year ago) clearly demonstrate that the indo-aryan myths and moral concepts went into India in around 3500 BC and were then frozen in time along with other local myths and ideas. The Rig Veda is the actual distortion, not the Avesta. But NOTHING went outside India after that, since if it had, it would have show up somewhere in the West."

      """ "This is futile nonsense, again. The earlist Abrahamic religion is the Jewish religion which has an entirely different form and structure of mythology. It had a very small extent and influence (and still has only a tiny influence). The main change to the Abrahamic religions came with Christianity, from around 350 AD. Prior to that, there was hardly any “invasion” of local cultures/ religions by any Abrahamic religion.
      I can better understand where the Hindutva fanatics come from, now. They come from an abysmal well of ignorance. I can only expect that from them." - """"


      I was actually preparing to engage more with him ,but midway while typing my comment,I chose to back off.It's quite futile debating with a person who is hellbent on sticking to AIT to the extent that he can make Zend Avesta as the original and Rig veda to be the derivative ! We are on so different positions here that debate will be silly and a waste.
      Mr Sabhlok seems to have forgotten that Zoroastrianism had to endure the Islamic aggression :) Hence no use in chasing his second point also on Judaism.

      It occurred to me that Sabhlok ,being a political aspirant,seems to have more of a problem with Hindutva sponsoring OIT than he has with OIT itself on the ground of logic.

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    7. @ Iniyavel

      Many currencies of the world peg themselves to the US dollar.As of now nothing is probably better than US dollar pegging.But Energy pegging can also be a good option in the future.Apart from this ,if SDR of IMF can replace US dollar,then in future it might be a good pegging tool for the other currencies.

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    8. @JAM

      As I said, there is some textual evidence supporting the view that the basic cultural elements in Rig Veda came from outside India.

      Firstly, Rig Vedic Sanskrit is the earliest form of Indo-Aryan language found in India. But there is an even earlier version of IA found in the Middle East, namely the Mitanni empire. The archaic form of IA language found in Mitanni is never reciprocated in India. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.

      The Vedic people kept horses in the center of their culture. So this brings up the question of why war quality horses were not domesticated by the Indus Valley Civilization. Indeed, there is no evidence that the IVC people ever engaged in warfare. YSV's explanation that Indians may have imported horses under a free market system does not explain why the horses were kept as a central part of Vedic culture without being indigenously bred.

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    9. @ YSV

      Today I was reading in detail about Mr Sabhlok's political aspirations .I can now sense that he is doing the groundwork by bashing anything that comes from Hindutva/Sangh Parivar.He needs minority votebank desparately :) (or as Iniyavel says,he might also be "mortally afraid " of Islam :P ) .Hence it is pretty futile to engage with him.I was reading your comments and his later response.The response is repetitive and pretty much the same whatever logic you throw.This is called bragging,not debating.Let him live in his own illusions and aspirations :)

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    11. @ Iniyavel

      Yeah Capt and Sabhlok have many charcteristics in common.One major similarity being that both are not very open to other's viewpoints .Even Katju also has the habit of repeating on the same nonsense that crosses his head ,but atleast he doesnt block or filter the comments section(even to the extent of allowing porn spammers :) )

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    13. @ Iniyavel

      Atleast Katju speaks up on the right issues time to time.But the other two live in their own drug induced hallucinations

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    15. @ PremCHand

      Mittani empire is considered older than rig veda because of the use of a few words like aika etc,which seem to be the precursor of rig vedic sanskrit equivalents.But on the contrary there are words in mitanni which are much younger in the historical timeline than rig vedic sanskrit.This consideration of mitanni IA language being older than rig vedic sanskrit also stems from the belief that rig veda is a derivative and not original and the Max Muller complex of assigning timeline of 1500 bc to rig veda.
      On a separate point,If I am not wrong the I think at present the dominant view in modern ancient history and archaeology circle is that the AIT has very scant or almost zero evidence in its favour.This is the reason why I chose to discontinue my dialogue with Mr Sabhlok.

      BTW PremChand what's your opinion on this link :

      http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/aryan-invasion-history

      Since you have good knowledge on this topic,I would like to know your views on the above link and its claims.

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    16. @ PremChand,YSV & others

      Also whats your opinions on this link :

      https://web.archive.org/web/20060705184146/http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/history/history5.shtml

      Does this acceptance by BBC archive that aryan invasion theory had been based on very lose circumstantial evidences,carry any weightage,or it is just like wiki links ?

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    21. "But on the contrary there are words in mitanni which are much younger in the historical timeline than rig vedic sanskrit."

      I did some basic reading on this topic about a year ago after which I slowly lost interest. To answer your query, the words that look like young Prakrit forms might be the result of "the peculiarities of the
      cuneiform writing system and to the Mitanni form of the Hurrite language." I have taken this directly from Michael Witzel's paper. He is one of my main sources on this topic. Beyond this, I really dont care if India or any other place is the source of Vedic culture. As far as I am concerned, the Vedas were composed in India. That is enough. This is the link for Witzel's paper:

      http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-3.pdf

      This paper is somewhat technical. You can skim or read fully based on your interest. The quote I provided related to your query is from page 66 in this paper.

      Re the article from NS Rajaram. He is not really an expert in this subject. Here is an expose of his 'research' by Witzel:

      http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1720/17200040.htm

      Our YSV has this to say about Rajaram et al:

      "Does anyone else feel that David Frawley,Subhash Kak,N.S Rajaram
      etc are kinda spacy?Though I admire them for attempting to debunk the
      AIT,I wish they would do it in a more concrete and less abstract
      manner.Their knowledge of Hinduism seems incredibly whitewashed by
      vegetarianism and nonviolence etc,not just animal sacrifices,they seem
      to hint the Mahabharata war also as a metaphor for "higher spiritual
      goals"."

      It is true that among some Indian archaeologists, Aryan Migration from outside India is less popular because of the lack of material evidence. But most western archaeologists support the Kurgan hypothesis ie Indo-European language and culture originated in Ukraine, hence outside India.

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    22. @ Iniyavel

      Never even come close to such tantric/aghora practice.It is not that they are something evil or bad,but for the fact that your wont get the right guide to show the path.In this context I remember a clear instruction by Vivekananda himself .Vivekananda had achieved siddhi in a form of Birachaar Tantra Sadhana,which is called Panchamundi (panchamundi means 5 skulls)sadhana in bengali.It is done by sitting on a human dead body in a cemetary with the skulls of 5 different animals(snake,fox and three others I cant remember at this moment).Very very few yogis can pass through this sadhana,because of the amount of selfless and dispassionate courage that it requires to pass through the ordeal.It was because of this sadhana that Vivekananda got the fearlessness to preach the hitherto neglected tenets of Sanatan Dharma to the world.But Vivekananda himself had warned people against taking up Birachaar.His cause of concern was that most people misuse the petty powers and apparently immoral lifestyle that are part and parcel of this tantra ,and ultimately become morally degraded.Here's what he wrote in bengali addressing Vamachaar Tantriks(I am translating this in english) : " Your addiction to Vamachaar is destroying Bengal's beauty.Look at the other parts of India.They are far better compared to Bengal at present.You can boast of Bengal's past knowledge in Vamachaar as much as you want,but the reality is that it is slowly destroying the moral fabric of the bengali society and turning bengal into a hell.This degraded Vamachaar Tantra community,which has filled Bengal now,immerses in immorality in the nights and speaks highly about tantric theology and heritage in daylight."
      Note that this observation comes from someone who himself had achieved siddhi in Birachaar tantra(a line of Vamachaar).Ramakrishna had described Vamachaar as the "path that leads to the sewer" .Neither VIvekananda nor Ramakrishna had any grudge against Vamachaar philosophy,their point was that Vamachaar should be avoided by normal men,as real dispassionate Gurus in this lineage have become rare at present.

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    23. I don't understand why Vivekanada feels that other parts of India were far better than Bengal at his time. Bengal was the most modernised part of India and provided so many intellectuals who formed the Bengali Renaissance.

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    24. @ PremChand

      Thanks for the links,I am going through them. I liked your pov when you wrote : " Beyond this, I really dont care if India or any other place is the source of Vedic culture. As far as I am concerned, the Vedas were composed in India. That is enough.".
      However I myself believe that IVC and Rig Vedic civilization were a continuation and not discrete in their existence.Hence to me IVC is the root of Early Vedic age and not the Kurgan hypothesis.
      The evidences against AIT are more formidable than those in support of it.But since this theory was given a high precedence throughout the last century,hence it will take some time probably to reconstruct and disintegrate AIT permanently.I personally believe that efforts in predating Mitanni empire before Rig vedic civilization have their roots in this AIT philosophy,even though the proponents of this hypothesis might not be direct supporters of AIT.Same goes for the Kurgan hypothesis.Note that these are my views.Hence I am not going into a debate with you over this :-)

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    25. @ PremChand

      The Bengali renaissance was predominantly a Kolkata phenomenon.Rural Bengal didnt get the light of education until much later.(note that the preindependence Bengal had a far greater expanse at that time,including even small parts of Modern Bihar,Jharkhand,Orissa and the whole Bangladesh).It was literally impossible to spread the light of Kolkata urban class into the whole of Bengal in so short a time.Even then I could not understand what Vivekananda had actually meant when he compared Bengal with other states.Was it the economic and cultural degradation he had referred to?I am not sure of this.But the fact is that Bengal in the 19th century was not any better than rest of India,if not worse.Kolkata was a minute fragment of Bengal.And Kolkata at that time represented mainly the culture of western Bengal ,eastern bengal always had a different cultural flow(which is all the more prominent at present due to the partition of Bangladesh).

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    28. @ Iniyavel

      Kurgan hypothesis is the most popular among all IndoEuropean origin theories.But since I believe that Indian wisdom(whether it is right-hand or left-hand) had originated wholly from within India,hence Kurgan hypothesis holds the same value to me as AIT.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

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    30. @ Iniyavel

      "Palas when I read about them in my textbook during 7th grade were described to be the ancestors of Biharis." - The book that you had read oversimplified the facts,but not entire wrong :) The culture of eastern India is the magadhic tradition.Both Bihar and Bengal are descendents of this Magadhic lineage.Tamil culture had existed since very ancient times in its distinct form and identity.But it was not so with Bengali culture.The separation of Bengali culture from Magadhic line had happened first under the Pala dynasty. the separation and build-up of distinctness in case of Bihar had happened even later.Hence the history book you read have written that Bengalis are the ancestors of Biharis(also because Pala dynasty controlled Bihar area ) :) But this is a wrong/simplistic way to look at it.Bengali and Bihari cultures are both descendents of the ancient Magadha.Hence the true ancestry lies with the Magadhic heritage.

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    31. @ Iniyavel

      Yeah I hold the same view on Kurgan hypothesis,ie,it is as much pathetic to me as the AIT. Infact Kurgan Hypothesis to me is another way of validating the core principle of AIT.

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    33. @JAM

      But any kind of Renaissance usually happens in a densely populated urban setup. I suppose rural people would have lived a simple existence like any other place in India.

      In an unrelated note, may I ask you about the the extent to which Bengali and Oriya are similar? Can a Bengali person understand alteast a few words in Oriya and vice versa? I have noticed that Oriya seems a little harsh sounding compared to Bengali.

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    34. @PremChand

      Yeah precisely that was my point on bengali renaissance.But the point you raised on the observation of Vivekananda is not off the mark.Vivekananda surely didnt mean the urban Kolkata alone,he meant the whole of Bengal .But as I said,even I am not sure ,what exactly he could have meant when he compared Bengal with erstwhile Indian states.He didnt elaborate on this issue in the passage which I translated.

      Bengalis can more or less follow both Oriya and Assamese.We cannot read their scripts but we can understand what they are speaking.For oriya it is a little tougher because the oriya dialect differs a little bit more than the Assamese .But this similarity is only limited to speaking.when it comes to writing,all the three languages are quite different.
      Strangely another language that matches bengali in alphabets is Bishnupriya Maniuri.I will be able to read Bishnupriya manipuri language script as it uses the bengali alphabets fully.But I wont be able to understand many of their words,they are very different from bengali.Bishnupriya uses the same bengali alphabet set and yet the words/phonetics are very different.
      Does bengali sound a bit sweeter than oriya :) ? I wont be able to detect the difference as much as you,since I am accustomed to hearing Bengali.Only people who have a neutral linguistic stand(like you) on this can sort out the difference :) .For example,Punjabi dialect is considered very sweet in general,but Punjabis themselves will not feel the difference(even if they claim to do,it will be a biased inference :P ) I personally find Hindi phonetics to be very melodious .But that might also be due to the fact that I hear and speak in hindi quite often while interacting with people .

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    35. @ PremChand

      Forgot to mention,going by my experience of Kangal Irandal song and the songs shared by Iniyavel,I have found Tamil language to be very charming and sweet in phonetics :)
      Among the foreign languages,Japanese seems very melodious to me as a foreigner(it can be my own bias on Japanese,as I watch Japanese animes every now and then).Apart from Japanese ,French is another language that I find graceful.

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    36. @JAM

      Hindi uses a lot of aspirated consonants like kh, gh, jh which make it sound a bit harsh. I guess aspiration is less frequently used in Punjabi and Bengali.

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    37. As far as I know, Mitanni language was spoken by elites in the region that is now Iraq and Turkey. The masses were no IE speakers whether Semitic or Hurrian.

      It is said that the Kurds were descendants of these and other proto Iranian peoples. But I am not so sure. By physiognomy and customs alone, Kurds don't seem all that different from Northern Semitic peoples. The IE Kurdish language could've been imposed on them just as Mitanni was.

      Michael Witzel is certainly not the bigoted monster that the Hindutvadis make him out to be. I don't think the AIT should be a litmus test for who is and who isn't sympathetic to Hindu causes. Having said that he is still inaccurate I believe as he subscribes to an outmoded model of reading the Rg Veda

      Shrikanth Talageri's day job may have been a bank manager but he did stellar work on the Vedas. Much better than Electrical Engineer Rajaram who has good insights on late 20th century Indian history, is pretty much lost on Vedic India.

      The best and most comprehensive pro AIT work is by Bernard Sergant. He has done this by not observing any sacred cows whether pro or anti AIT and engaged in original research which culminated in fresh ideas.

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    39. @YSV

      "As far as I know, Mitanni language was spoken by elites in the region that is now Iraq and Turkey. The masses were no IE speakers whether Semitic or Hurrian."

      Actually the Mitanni document is written in a non-Indo European language called Hurrian. It contains some technical terms and proper nouns that are Indo-Aryan. It is likely that even the elite only spoke the Hurrian language with an overlay of Indo-Aryan analogous to Telugu and Malayalam.

      Iranic speaking people like Kurds should not be confused with the Indo-Aryan Mitanni. The Aryan-Iranian split had already happened before the era of the Mitanni document.

      Michael Witzel demonized himself in the eyes of the Hindutvadis by campaigning against Subramaniam Swamy in response to him somewhat anti-Muslim comments.

      Witzel belongs to the Junggramattiker school of German linguists started by Hermann Oldenburg. Although Witzel is a little hasty in his migration interpretation of the Rig Veda, his criticism of Shrikant Talageri's work is on the money. Talageri has demonstrated ignorance of the nitty-gritties of linguistics and makes other mistakes like an inconsistent use of the Vedic Anukramanis. To his credit, Talageri doesn't reject linguistics like Rajaram does, but frankly, you need to be a professional to make headway in this field after a certain level.

      I am not familiar with Sergent's pro-AIT work. Could you please a brief summary or links?

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    40. I think the main bone of contention of the Hindutvadis was Witzel role of California Board of Education case where he successfully lobbied against OIT being included in history books.

      I do not dismiss linguistics per se but its role in demographic movements is questionable especially since one ethnic group picks up a language of another all the time for one reason or another.

      I am not familiar with Witzels criticism of Talageri so cant comment.

      Here is a rather exhaustive albeit glowing review of Sergents work by none other than Koenraad Elst!

      http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/reviews/sergent.html

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    41. @SMME

      I meant that Bernard Sergant gave a strong and clear pro invasion argument as opposed to other scholars who regurtitate the same old tropes.

      Ultimately I suppose everyone believes in AIT , it is just a matter of chronology. Even OIT maybe willing to accept that proto Aryans moved into India during the Ice Age!

      I think it is more important to the anti AIT people to establish Vedic civilization and Sanskrit originated in India. Everything else is white noise

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    44. @YSV

      "I do not dismiss linguistics per se but its role in demographic movements is questionable especially since one ethnic group picks up a language of another all the time for one reason or another."

      This is true, but it is an argument against both AIT and OIT. The only concrete evidence in our hands is linguistic. But language can only move with people, so either AIT or OIT is definitely true. However modern AIT propenents like Witzel claim that the 'invasion' was actually a trickle of migrants moving in two or three waves who began a domino effect of cultural assimilation in South Asia. According to him, they may not have left a substantial genetic imprint so that is the genetic evidence out the window. Here's Witzel's critcism of Talageri which I provided to JAM earlier:

      http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-3.pdf

      In a limited sense, the Vedas and Sanskrit originated in India. All the Vedas in their current form were composed within India and the rules of Classical Sanskrit were outlined by Panini inside the subcontinent. If I were a Hindutvadi, I would be content with this rather than obsess about trying to prove that the whole gamut of Indo-European languages and culture originated in India.

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    45. @ PremCHand

      "In a limited sense, the Vedas and Sanskrit originated in India. All the Vedas in their current form were composed within India and the rules of Classical Sanskrit were outlined by Panini inside the subcontinent. If I were a Hindutvadi, I would be content with this rather than obsess about trying to prove that the whole gamut of Indo-European languages and culture originated in India." - While I do sympathise with your logic,I do not agree with you on one major issue.As I said,I believe that vedic civilization was either the natural or forced continuation of IVC.Hence I believe that even the prevedic people were from within the subcontinent.However later on external assimilation had occurred as is evident from the genetic studies of Indian populace(which is nonhomogenous).The chief flaw of AIT is that it assumes that Aryans had developed vedic literature and brought that to India.

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    46. "The chief flaw of AIT is that it assumes that Aryans had developed vedic literature and brought that to India."

      This is a strawman. I think most pro-AIT scholars now agree that the Vedas were composed in Punjab. This is obvious even to a casual observer since the Vedas speak of the Indus and its tributaries often. Re Saraswati, we see 2 arguments being thrown around:

      1. The Saraswati river mentioned several times in RV is the same as the Gagra-Hakra river in India.

      2. The Saraswati river is the same as Helmand river in Afghanistan.

      According to Witzel, both these arguments are wrong. Saraswati is a mythological river alluded to in other IE cultures by different names. This name was later given to physical rivers like Helmand (Harakhvati) and Gagar-Hakra.

      Re the question of whether IVC is a continuation of vedic culture, I think Witzel addresses this in his Autochthonous Aryans paper.

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    47. @ PremChand

      "This is a strawman. I think most pro-AIT scholars now agree that the Vedas were composed in Punjab." - ofcourse it is a strawman for me,but not so for AIT supporters like Sabhlok,who are even willing to call zend avesta as the precursor of rigveda.
      What is Witzel's opinion on Indigenous aryans?Can you elaborate his major views on this?

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    48. Iniyavel, you looked down upon me for offering milk & Aralu to snake idols on Nag Panchami but you seem to be ready to go to a graveyard/cemetery to perform vamachara rituals and appease not Lord Shiva but Yakshinis for some cheap siddhis.

      And you mentioned with a superior air that you were monotheistic and you worship none other than Shiva and that you treat polytheistic people with disdain. Now isn't that a contradiction.

      But I'm not like you. I don't have a problem if anyone is monotheistic, polytheistic or atheistic. I certainly don't say that my path is the correct one and other paths are false. I believe in the policy of "Live and let live."

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    49. @ PremChand

      "According to Witzel, both these arguments are wrong. Saraswati is a mythological river alluded to in other IE cultures by different names." - I dont think saraswati is wholly a myth has yet been established beyond all doubts.However I am not against this view.It might well be possible that Saraswati referred to some spiritual/mythological idea and not a real river.Just like the imaginary concept of a river/ocean which soul has to cross after death.Hence I personally would not run after trying to prove the real existence of Saraswati.Having said that,a river drying up and vanishing is not impossible.As I mentioned in one of my earlier comments,there was a real saraswati river in Bengal which dried up in and around the 16 th century.Its existence has been confirmed even in the accounts of British travellers.

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    50. @Anu

      Iniyavel's interest in calling Yakshini even shocked me :) He passes of Rajayoga(kundalini) as something not very essential,but he is quite interested in exploring Tantric/vamachara practices :) Iniyavel for your info,Vamachara tantra is also about raising Kundalini.And it is best if you avoid Vamachara in this age.Tantra is about gaining supreme realisation in a single lifetime,it is not about taking some stray mantras from here and there and acquiring some petty powers/siddhis.

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    51. "ofcourse it is a strawman for me,but not so for AIT supporters like Sabhlok,who are even willing to call zend avesta as the precursor of rigveda."

      This is Sabhlok's POV taken from his blog:

      "But also note that I’m NOT advocating AIT. All I’m saying is that OIT is incorrect, particularly its “strong” form which says that RV was formed in 5000bc and then spread the ideas that are found in some scattered forms across the middle east and central Asia. That OIT (in the form it is promoted by Hindutva fanatics) is false doesn’t make AIT true. Please keep that in mind."

      Witzel strongly disagrees with the following claims:

      1. Sanskrit and its predecessors developed entirely inside India.
      2. India is the IE homeland
      3. Indus Valley and Vedic culture are one and the same thing.
      4. The Vedas were composed during an early date like 5000 BC.

      Witzel does not say that Saraswati is completely a myth. Rather, the original Saraswati in the early segments of RV is a mythical river the same way Milky way galaxy is not literally a milky way. However, in the later segments of the RV, Saraswati might refer to Gagar-Hakra while in the Avesta it might refer to Helmand. Witzel uses this argument in support of AIT. However, I need to stress again that Witzel believes that it was a small migration rather than an invasion.

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    52. @ PremChand

      ""But also note that I’m NOT advocating AIT. All I’m saying is that OIT is incorrect, particularly its “strong” form which says that RV was formed in 5000bc and then spread the ideas that are found in some scattered forms across the middle east and central Asia. That OIT (in the form it is promoted by Hindutva fanatics) is false doesn’t make AIT true. Please keep that in mind."" -Yeah sabhlok claims this but look at his arguments,he is ready to bring ridiculous points while defending AIT.Infact after you quoted this passage of Sabhlok,I now agree all the more with Iniyavel that Sabhlok is a cunning man.
      Following Sabhlok I have understood clearly that he is preparing his ground of anti-Hindu secularism subtly by the propagation of his views.Hence his constant bashing of Hindutva.Cant blame him though.This is something which every political party in India has been doing since independence(sangh parivar do this to a lesser extent than congress,but all are guilty of this)

      Did witzel push back the date of vedas to 5000 bc?Now this is something I do support.I believe that the timeline of 3100 bc of Mahabharata war is true.
      I do believe that Rigveda was a continuation or evolution of IVC civilization.It might also be that IVC people were vedic .Infact if Witzel's claims have some valid ground that veda composition was around 5000 bc,then IVC should even be older than that.What's your opinion on this anyway?



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    53. @JAM

      The points I mentioned re Witzel are what he opposes, not supports. Frankly, after listening to all the arguments my opinion is only confusion.

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    54. @ PremChand

      Very sorry pal,I misread your comment.You are right when you say that all opinions from multiple sources only adds to the confusion.but I do believe that IVC was either the precursor or the same rig vedic civilization in slightly different texture.

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    57. @ Iniyavel

      First of all get used to differing views on an open forum.PremChand and I have bashed each other on many points where we differed completely,but that doesnt mean we took that personally.YSV's blog is not one-way hosepipe like Capt,where only resonating views are propagated.Infact the society outside is more like an open forum,where you might have to adjust yourself to drastically different opinions.

      You start by defending your position on Nag panchami and yet you admit "the "superior air" might have been due to the Tamil supremacist garbage trash which I too often used to mix with my statements. " .So you could have admitted this straight away that some superiority complex might have slipped into your comment in your previous discussions with Anu.That would have settled it without so much of plot twist.I have always apologised to PremChand whenever I bashed him wrongly by misunderstanding his point or my words apparently conveyed incorrect meaning.It stops there.No need to drag it on by saying "Looks like I got to reduce my presence drastically here. " Hope you get my point.
      Kundalini causes problem if you raise it wrongly.Pranayam or yoga is not the best way to raise it.
      A final point,I have never bashed you for any of your opinions unless they sounded secessionist or anti-national,something which I cant tolerate.But even then I have no hard feelings for you.

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    58. Iniyavel, I don't have a problem with your monotheistic views. I only pointed your contradictory statements. While on the one hand you mentioned that you prefer to worship the supreme God Shiva alone, on the other hand you were thinking of invoking minor and insignificant dieties / demi goddesses like Yakshinis.

      You add more value to YSV Rao's comment section than me. You need not stop commenting here. I will be decreasing my presence here not because of any difference of opinions or hard feelings towards you but because I have other priorities that need my time.

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    60. FYI, Nag Panchami is a big festival in North Karnataka and particularly in the Dharwad, Haveri, Bidar, Bijapur districts. Lingyaths celebrate it with great fervor. There is also a custom among Lingayaths and other communities of N.Karnataka that the brother should go and invite the married sister to her parental home during Nag Panchami. They also prepare lots of sweets during the festival just like how we prepare sweets during Deepavali and Ganesh Chaturthi.
      http://www.itslife.in/festivals/nagara-panchami

      There is also popular folk song of N.Karnataka, where the sister is wondering why her Anna (elder brother) has not yet come to call her as only 4 days are left for the Panchami festival. Hear it on YouTube:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iyxa7M9mIM

      Why should we ridicule other people's customs?

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    61. @ Anu & Iniyavel

      Nag Panchami is also celebrated in eastern India through the worship of goddess Manasha.Manasha is the sister of Vasuki according to Indian mythology : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manasa

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    63. @ Iniyavel

      You are speaking a few north eastern states,which are christian majority.By eastern India we generally mean Bengal, orissa,jharkhand Bihar and Andaman.evangelist activities as of now hasn't gained enough steam in eastern India.Hindu population in east India has held on to many of the ancient rituals and traditions,which has reduced the pangs of missionary activity to a large extent :) This is the one thing that I find worrying in Kerala,there the hindu population is decreasing quite rapidly.

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    64. I don't suppose the NE states with their tribal culture were ever fully Hindu to begin with. But the success of evangelism there is indeed worrying.

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    67. Cockroaches can survive a nuclear attack not because of their skins, rather because their cells divide only once a week whereas human cells divide all the time. Normal buildings made of anything- be it concrete or cockroach skin will be flattened within the blast radius of a nuclear attack.

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    69. @Iniyavel, she is calling her brother and not her sister or sister-in-law. Kannada spoken in N.Karnataka has a different slang from what is spoken in Bangalore.

      Since you are shaivite, if you get a chance do visit "Kudala Sangama" in N. Karnataka, where Basavanna wrote his Vachanas and his Samadhi is also there.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudalasangama

      @JAM: I remember reading about Manasa in a story book. Do you have Manasa temples in Bengal? And do you prepare sweets at home during Navaratras or Diwali?

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    70. Iniyavel, it's funny that you bring the topic of cockroaches here. I've heard that they can cause typhoid and other deadly diseases and getting rid of them is such a bother.

      @Premchand, what do you think of ants? These days they are seen everywhere. Sometimes they get inside the vessels where milk is kept. Is it harmful if we consume such milk inadvertently? How do we get rid of them without using gammexane and other chemicals?

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    71. @ Anu

      There are many Manasa temples in Bengal.THey were found in larger numbers in East Bengal or present Bangladesh.Though I dont know how many of them have remained intact in Bangladesh at present.My mother told me that the erstwhile east bengal never became urbanised the western bengal and swamps or marshes are very common in bangladesh.Hence the population of snakes is also high there.THis might be one of the reasons why Manasa Deity is popular there.But even in west bengal there are many Manasha temples at present,and many were built by the Hindu refugees of East Pakistan(Bangladesh) of 1947 and 1972 who have settled here.I have heard real stories of Manasa deity worshippers who received her boons in miraculous conditions.
      Here are some bengali sweets prepared in Navaratri,Janmastami or other occassions.

      http://www.boldsky.com/cookery/sweet-tooth/indian-sweets/patishapta-bengali-sweets-recipe-031237.html

      https://bitesofsweetandspice.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/narkel-naru-bengali-coconut-ladoo-a-sweet-dish-for-durga-puja/

      http://cookingwithsapana.blogspot.in/2013/06/cham-cham-bengali-sweet.html

      http://www.boldsky.com/cookery/sweet-tooth/indian-sweets/coconut-ladoo-with-condensed-milk-039145.html

      http://souvik-chatterjee.blogspot.in/p/bengali-sweets.html

      http://www.archanaskitchen.com/recipes/indian/snacks-and-sweets/indian-sweets-mithai-recipes/1236-rasgulla-rosogolla-a-delicious-bengali-sweet

      http://indiaopines.com/foods-bengalis-love/

      @ PRemChand

      You are right on the point of nuclear missiles.A modern nuclear missile will generate so high an amount of energy that everything within its core radius will plain evaporate(be it concrete or steel).Instead of cockroach mechanism, a better defence is using an interceptor missile system.DRDO is developing an two-tier indigenous interceptor system at present.Most of the tests were succesful.


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    72. @ Anu

      In general ants that are found in homes and creep into food are not harmful when consumed.I myself have consumed many ants inadvertently through food :) In bengali there is a funny proverb that says eating ants with food makes you a great swimmer :-) Probably the proverb was coined by people of the past as it is literally impossible to remove all ants from items like flour or grains etc.

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    73. @ Anu

      Forgot to mention,in most years Diwali in Bengal is not celebrated with much difference,as Diwali overlaps with the Kali Puja or falls on the of BhatriDwitiya.In bengal Kali puja and BhatriDwitiya are celebrated traditionally by bongs.Anyway on the day of diwali we light many diyas or candles in our homes.But there is no other separate demarcating celebration for Diwali or Kali Puja in general,ie,Diwali is also celebrated with crackers as Kali puja,if Diwali and Kali puja falls on separate dates.I doubt how mnay Bongs actually know that Diwali is related to Lord Rama and not the same as Kali Puja :)
      In case Diwali and Kali puja falls on the same date,it becomes a unique example of ethnic integrity in Bengal :) While the non bengali people(mainly inhabitants from hindi heartland,Gujarat,Punjab etc) celebrate with crackers and sweets for Diwali,Bongs do the same for Kali puja :) The celebrations are the same yet the objectives are vastly different :)

      Cockroach is a filth of first grade.Hit spray is very effective against cockroaches.Wheneve I see one in my home,I kill it with Hit.Thus at present the cockroach population in my home has reduced to near zero.This year I got only one or two cockroaches .Kill them before they can breed.

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    74. @SMME

      I think JAM is right in stating that interceptors are the only defense against nuclear missiles. Cockroach skin does not have any special properties wrt radiation.

      @Anu

      You can use the special kind of chalks they have in the market. I believe Lakshmanrekha is one of the brands. They are very effective against ants and even cockroaches and also quite safe.

      @JAM

      Ants are okay long as they dont get into beds and leave bite marks all over our body :P

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    77. "I talked about cockroaches since Prem Chand is a biological genius, and I do not know when and where he will vanish next. So I wanted to nab him yesterday. "

      He he what?

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    78. @ Iniyavel

      That idea of deactivating or bugging enemy missile codes is not possible unless there are moles in multiple positions in the top level of the enemy nation.In movies these things seem so easy.For example I have seen atleast a thousand scenes in political or conspiracy movies where a politician is shot dead by a sniper from 1 km distance.But how many such sniper kills have we seen in reality?I dont remember a single one.Because it is not possible to do that with such ease and grace which movies show.
      It is better rather to focus R&d on making indigenou7s interceptor system more and more perfect for all sorts of incoming missiles.As of now I think Delhi and Mumbai have their own missile defence system developed by Drdo.It will take some time to get the cover for the whole nation.But the greatest deterrent to enemy's nuclear power is the possession of ICBMs by India.China will never think of attacking India with nuclear missiles unless a Kim Jong un type of guy ascends to the post of president of China.This is because India has lethal nuclear capabilities at present.
      On a side note,do you know DRDO is working on a secret project for development of a nuclear missile with 10000 km range?Probably this missile series will be named Surya.

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    79. @ Iniyavel

      I have a few friendly house lizards in my home :) Actually house lizards offer a wide range of protection from multiple insects and not cockroaches alone.They eat up many poisonous insects which can bite you and cause painful blisters or rashes.Another beautiful thing about house lizards is that they never bite humans,though they are carnivorous by nature.
      Observing the nature of animals and insects is one of my time killing hobbies :)

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    80. @ Iniyavel

      "Ants do come to my home, but I spray them with so much HIT, they hardly survive. I spray HIT and I evacuate and seal the room. An hour later, they're all gone! End of the story. " - you are the second most evil and deadly person I have ever met,the first slot going to Mallu messiah :P

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    81. @JAM: Thanks for all that info and also the links to all Bengali sweets. BTW, I don't have a sweet tooth and consume sweets very sparingly. Re. lizards, I am extremely terrified of them; you can say that I have a lizard phobia. But as you said they do help in getting rid of insects and cockroaches. But have you noticed that cats try to catch them and sometimes even kill them, though they don't eat them?

      You said it right JAM, Iniyavel is definitely evil....

      Iniyavel, ghee is not that bad. Read this
      http://rujutadiwekar.blogspot.in/2013/03/the-goodness-of-ghee.html
      And regarding rice:
      http://rujutadiwekar.blogspot.in/2013/02/rice-is-nice.html
      Rujuta Diwekar is a Mumbai based nutritionist.

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    83. @Anu

      I have seen cats feasting on lizards :) In general pet dogs and cats do not like the sight of a running lizard.Hence they try to catch and kill it. Overall house lizards are very genial and lovable creatures.The only thing to be taken care is that they should not come in contact with your food in any way.Other than this they create no problems for us,infact they help us indirectly.
      Bongs do not generally kill lizards,because they are considered somewhat auspicious and divine due to a legend associated with lizard and the female mystic&poet of ancient era known as Khana/Lilavati :
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khana_(poet)

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    84. @Iniyavel, So, Rujuta Diwekar is running a money-making racket! Never knew about this! Did your mom consult her online or did she go to Mumbai?

      JAM, even in Karnataka, lizards are not supposed to be killed.

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    87. @Iniyavel

      I had read the opinion of one DRDO scientist who said that India has cracked a vital barrier in technology with the design of Tejas LCA and Agni 5 missile.Now it has become far easier for Indian scientists to build newer variants with higher capabilities on the existing technology base.More than Surya missile,it is the Tejas LCA project that helped india achieve some hard milestones in technology development.Also the developed of Arihant class of submarines in the Advanced Technology Vessels research program of Indian govt was a tremendous feat.

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    88. Iniyavel, I'm curious to know one thing. When you were in Mumbai how did you converse with the children in your neighborhood while playing with them. Surely not all of them could speak English.

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    89. @ Iniyavel & Anu

      Rujuta Diwekar is a celebrity nutritionist.And celebrities are not fools to choose her :) Hence if she demands so high a rate for her consultancy,I would say she deserves it.

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    91. JAM, Yeah I know. Kareena Kapoor had consulted her for a size zero figure. Being a celebrity nutritionist does not mean that you should fleece common people!

      Iniyavel: Aren't there good nutritionists in Chennai? You should have consulted them. And why don't you try barefoot sand walking on the Marina beach?
      http://livehealthy.chron.com/benefits-walking-barefoot-beach-2875.html

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    93. @Iniyavel: I didn't know that Marina beach was so dangerous. I've never been to Chennai. In Goa, many people do sand walking on beaches; so recommended that to you. But why did your friends choose to walk so near the sea waters? If they had maintained a safe distance they wouldn't have got drowned.

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  2. @ All

    Here's another piece of garbage by Katju :

    http://justicekatju.blogspot.in/2015/06/yoga-and-suryanamaskar-bjp-led-by-mr.html?showComment=1434085594268#c5155665396757540391

    But my respect for Katju is yet to vanish wholly(like it has for Sabhlok or Vadakayil),as I have seen him raising the right voices in many other topics.

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    2. @ Iniyavel

      haha very true bro :)

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    3. Dude if you are overweight, simply just stop eating so much. Start with reducing rice and ghee. South Indians in general wreck their health with that stuff.

      Diet more than exercise is the way to go for weight loss. Ideally it should be both for starters stick to dieting.

      I remember when I wished to shed a few excess pounds, I would run six miles a day and not lose an ounce. I then found that a single bar of kit kat contains 150 calories,so one packet would be 600 ! Just a little below what I expend during my runs!
      So I cut out all the sweets AND reduced the miles and frequency of my routine and still lost weight.

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    5. I may have been a tad too harsh on Katju. He is atleast doesn't shield himself from dissenting opinions even if he doesn't interacted with the posters.
      He can be pretty funny mocking Hindu pieties such as when he recommended banning the killing of parrots, buffaloes, eagles on basis of offending Hindu sentiments as they are the vahanas of various Hindu Gods. Or when he recommended that in order to facilate rains we conduct yagnas, get wives to plough nude or sing Megha ragas!
      I did ROFL at those.
      And yes he does condemn Islam wholeheartedly and believes Gandhi to be a British agent.
      But OTOH he believe SCB was a Japanese agent! That is highly flawed thinking on his part to say the least.

      And then there is his respect for Rousseau and the French Revolution which IMO no self respecting person in the legal profession should entertain.

      This is why I maintain despite all his other admirable traits, he is a silly man.

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    6. @ Iniyavel

      Sorry I didnt reply to your weight problem :) What YSV wrote is perfect,you should try to cut down calories in your diet.Along with this do bodyweight exercises as these will boost the metabolism process,which inturn will ensure that your body burns fat throughout the day.

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    8. @ YSV

      yeah the oneliner definition for Katju is that he is a silly(and may I add shameless also :) ) man .

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    9. I still respect Sabhlok on matters of economics , though I don't think that is plainly a lack of material prosperity is what ails us. There is a great deal of spiritual rot even amongst religious people.

      This is the problem I have with materialists-both communists and libertarian capitalists. They believe the alpha and omega of all cultures are their economic systems. Of course they differ vastly on how they deal with those aspects. They plain ignore fundamental aspects of human nature.

      Sabhlok is not interested in even listening to counter arguments are just bull dozes ahead with his own pet theories. I got irritated not with his AIT leanings but his outdated theory on the role of superior cavalry of the invaders in the defeats of Indian kingdoms.

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    10. @ Iniyavel

      Weightlifting is probably not helping you then,atleast not in the short term.In the long term it will not help you in any way.Neither weightlifting nor running are very good form of exercises for the long term health benefits.

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  3. There is still the issue of Dravidian languages. I believe Dravidian language and customs were imposed by West Asian settlers on a relatively sparsely populated South India (and earlier Gujarat and Maharashtra) on Prakrit language speaking communities resident there.

    The presence of Dravidian Brahui in Baluchistan could either be due to that dynamic or even the south Indian invasions of Rashtrakutas and Chalukyas in the latter part of the first millennium AD.

    I admit the above is not a popular theory.

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    2. Dravidian as of now is a linguistic term and does not rule fair skinned Caucasoid peoples. If you go by descriptions of Tamils and others that earlier Dravidians looked a lot different than they do today. Especially in AP and TN, due to frequent wars, entire populations were decimated and the very different looking tribals were introduced into Vedic society. This happened towards the beginning of the 2nd millennium AD

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    3. @ Premchand There are too many unknown variables re Indus Valley as well as Mahabharata. The margin of error is a few hundred years if not a millennium.
      I mean 400 years ago USA was a vast wilderness. Even within a year spectacular changes occur.

      In 1564 there was a flourishing metropolis hosting a large population , the capital of the most powerful Hindu kingdom in India, in 1566 Vijayanagar was no more.

      So I don't really bother myself on this matter due to such inconsistencies on a position based on incomplete information.

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    1. @Iniyavel

      Modi is far more followed in facebook than in twitter.And twitter is full of bot accounts.This is because twitter is inherently suitable for bots to operate.Hence not only Modi,but any other popular figure will have a significant number of bots.

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    3. @Iniyavel

      Everyone has their own mindset and thinking .I am comfortable with it as long as I feel that the other person is not a bigot.As of now I did not find anything to be utterly bigotic in Makesdevildance.What I have felt is that he selectively follows some sources and frames his opinion based on those .And nothing wrong even with that(as long as you accept that the other side of the coin also exists)

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    6. @ Iniyavel

      Where;s the link to read :) ? You forgot to share the link :P

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  6. @ Makesdevildance

    I dont know whether you are visiting this blog at present.But since you had raised questions on Netaji's secularism,I am giving you the link to Netaji's autobiographical book " An Indian Pilgrim".

    http://www.subhaschandrabose.org/download/type/1/name/an_indian_pilgrim.pdf

    No need to go through the whole book.Just read the last chapter named My Faith(Philosophical) .I am quoting a relevant part of this chapter for you convenience :

    ""Actual experience demonstrates that the changes imply
    progress — and not meaningless motion.Further, this reality is, for me, Spirit working with a conscious purposethrough time and space. This conception does not, of course, represent theAbsolute Truth which is beyond description for all time and which for meis also beyond comprehension at the present moment. It is therefore arelative truth and is liable to change along with the changes in my mind.Nevertheless, it is a conception which represents my utmost effort to
    comprehend reality and which offers a basis on which to build my life.
    Why do I believe in Spirit? Because it is a pragmatic necessity. My nature
    demands it. I see purpose and design in nature; I discern an 'increasing
    purpose' in my own life. I feel that I am not a mere conglomeration of
    atoms. I perceive, too, that reality is not a fortuitous combination of
    molecules. Moreover, no other theory can explain reality (as I understand
    it) so well. This theory is in short an intellectual and moral necessity, a
    necessity of my very life, so far as I am concerned.There is nothing wrong in this—for, as Emerson said, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.Moreover, what is progress,if it does not involve change?
    The world is a manifestation of Spirit and just as Spirit is eternal so also is
    the world of creation. Creation does not and cannot end at any point of
    time. This view is similar to the Vaishnavic conception of Eternal Play
    (Nitya Leela). Creation is not the offspring of sin; nor is it the result of
    'avidya' or 'ignorance' as the Shankarites would say. It reflects the eternal
    play of eternal forces — the Divine Play, if you will.
    I may very well be asked why I am bothering about the ultimate nature of
    reality and similar problems and am not contenting myself with
    experience as I find it. The answer to that is simple. The moment we
    analyse experience, we have to posit the self — the mind which receives —
    and the non-self — the source of all impressions, which form the stuff of
    our experience. The non-self — reality apart from the self — is there and
    we cannot ignore its existence by shutting our eyes to it. This reality
    underlies all our experience and on our conception of it depends much
    that is of theoretical and practical value to us.
    No, we cannot ignore reality. We must endeavour to know its nature —
    though, as I have already indicated, that knowledge can at best be relative
    and cannot be dignified with the name of Absolute Truth. This relative
    truth must form the basis of our life — even if what is relative is liable to
    change.
    What then is the nature of this Spirit which is reality? One is reminded of
    the parable of Ramakrishna about a number of blind men trying to
    describe an elephant — each giving a description in accordance with the
    organ he touched and therefore violently disagreeing with the rest. My
    own view is that most of the conceptions of reality are true, though
    partially, and the main question is which conception represents the
    maximum truth. For me, the essential nature of reality is LOVE. LOVE is
    the essence of the Universe and is the essential principle in human life. I
    admit that this conception also is imperfect — for I do not know today
    what reality is in itself and I cannot lay claim to knowing the Absolute
    today — even if it be within the ultimate reach of human knowledge or
    experience.""
    (end of the passage)

    @Makesdevildance,hope now you will get a clear idea that Bose was far from the atheist secular commie which you were thinking of.


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  9. @All: Did you all read this at Quora?
    http://www.quora.com/Who-is-Ajit-Vadakayil

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    1. @Anu

      Also got this link from the same page you provided :

      http://www.quora.com/How-can-people-not-recognize-the-misinformation-that-Captain-Ajit-Vadakayil-spreads-in-his-blog

      Anyway thnks for sharing the links.

      In the meantime I had a hard time on twitter.Some RSS and hindutva fanatics are just not willing to accept that the quran is actually better than old testament or talmud.Ofcourse Islamic society is bigotic but that doesnt come from the quran but from the fact that Muslims are stuck in middle ages.
      They are just fuming when I try to mention that among the abrahamic religions quran is the only one whose philosophy and teachings matches our Sanatan Dharmic principles to some extent.Kunal Singh(whose articles YSV had shared) had also mentioned a similar thing.These people on twitter dont even know the violence that was prevalent in christianity and judaism in the beginning.They think evil in the world started with quran.this is the problem when you try to debate logically with people having little expanse of mind.
      Another claim of mine that irked a few RSS fanatics(not all) is that Hindu mahasabha had actually helped the british against the advancement of INA by netaji,as HMS allowed recruitment of RSS swamsevaks to be recruited in the British Indian army.These are simple historical truths.
      I am an ardent fan of modern RSS for their work starting from protection of refugees in partition to date.Present RSS is more nationalistic than the RSS of pre 1947.If someone doesnt accept this then he doesnt know all facets of freedom struggle history .

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    4. @JAM

      "Some RSS and hindutva fanatics are just not willing to accept that the quran is actually better than old testament or talmud."

      I have to disagree. Both Old Testament and New Testament are older than the Quran and actually form the foundation for ROP. Most of the good stuff in ROP can be seen in OT and NT. If you are interested, you can spend some time reading the New International Version of the Bible to see for yourself. Btw I am not an evangelical trying to recruit you :P I believe in plucking fruits from all orchards.

      "They are just fuming when I try to mention that among the abrahamic religions quran is the only one whose philosophy and teachings matches our Sanatan Dharmic principles to some extent."

      Could you please furnish some examples of what Hinduism and Islam have in common? (apart from Sufism which is a hybrid hence doesn't count)

      "These people on twitter dont even know the violence that was prevalent in christianity and judaism in the beginning."

      Far be it for me to defend Christianity in the Middles ages :) I have engaged in heated arguments with YSV about this. Although Leviticus and Deuteronomy from the Torah have their share of odious content, it is unlikely that the most of the stuff they prescribe were actually implemented in Ancient Judaism. The Talmud as YSV once explained is mostly two rabbis arguing about the fine aspects of Jewish law with some offensive content about non-Jews. Re Genesis and its description of massacres, again there is very little evidence that these actually happened or atleast on the scale described.

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    6. @PremChand

      Iniyavel did the work for me :) Thanks Iniyavel

      Premchand when you refer to the online bible versions,I think they might have filtered many of the violent parts.I have read new testament not old testament :

      http://www.compellingtruth.org/jihad-Bible.html

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence#Sociological_reflections_and_responses

      http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788

      http://www.biblica.com/en-us/bible/bible-faqs/why-so-much-war-in-the-old-testament/

      http://onetheology.com/2015/02/12/review-of-the-violence-of-scripture-overcoming-the-old-testaments-troubling-legacy/

      I think the "New International Version of the Bible " that is available free online is a filtered one,though I am not sure about it .You will know better.
      YSV had shared one of the articles of Kunal Singh,where the latter wrote that only the Quran among the abrahamic religions had made an attempt of spiritual perfection like Sanatan Dharma/Buddha,though the attempt was incomplete and not holistic.As I said earlier,after reading Quran,I have found many of its core instructions for followers are quite similar to what Sanatan Dharma prescribes.I will deal with this in a separate comment.

      What's your opinion on my other viewpoint regarding RSS and freedom struggle?







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    7. @SMME

      I read the article you cited.

      "Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the founder of the worldwide Art of Living movement, highlights the fact that contrary to the common belief, Hinduism is as monotheistic in its creed as Islam. The Advaita, for instance, keeps speaking about non-dual monotheism, while the Bhagavad Gita says: “Eko devah sarva Bhutantaratma" (one God who dwells in everybody"

      Here the author is making the all-too-common mistake of not distinguishing between monism and monotheism. There are some schools of Hinduism which are monist, yes, but Islam like other Abrahamic religions (and unlike Hinduism) is monotheistic.

      "But do Muslims know that many Hindus, at the end of a puja, say :”Hritpadma karnikaa madhye shivena saha sundari; Pravishadvam mahadevi sarvai aavarnai saha” (You return back to my heart from the idol.)"

      Hindus believe that a deity can reside in an idol and in their heart. ROP says God can never be visualized in the form of an idol to begin with. There is a world of difference between these two.

      "Though Islam strictly adheres to the Formless (nirakar), it has nevertheless recognized the importance of the Form and the Symbol, symbolized by the Kaaba of Mecca; honoring it is worshipping the Formless through the Form (Sagun Saakar)."

      Koenraad Elst has a lot to say on the subject, hence I would refer you to his blogsite if you are interested.

      "Finally, Mecca was also a holy place for Hindus. The ancient Vedic scripture Harihareshwar Mahatmya mentions that Lord Vishnu's footprints are consecrated at three holy sites, namely Gaya, Mecca and Shukla Teertha : Ekam Padam Gayayantu MAKKAYAANTU Dwitiyakam Tritiyam Sthapitam Divyam Muktyai Shuklasya Sannidhau."

      This Oakish interpretation of Hindu scripture has been debunked already.

      "Hindus and Muslims ... must respect each other more and more, so that this senseless clash of religion, which in turn leads to a clash of civilizations, slowly fades away."

      I am deliberately quoting only a part of the sentence, since this is the only part I agree with.

      Although this article exhibits the admirable mindset of religious harmony, its methods are not scholarly and has a trace of pseudo-secularism in its argument.

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    8. @ JAM
      By "better" what do you mean specifically?
      If tolerance is your criteria even then you would have to be more specific. Yes the Hebrew Israelites were cruel to the Egyptians and Canaanites but within reservation. After they had secured the land of Israel , they thought no more of conquering other peoples or forcible conversions.
      I think it was in the midrash which stated that even a gentile female slave can find a place in the Kingdom of God.

      Christianity being more expansionist had a more blood soaked history but atleast in the New Testament, you have the idea of separation of church and state(Render unto Caesar , render unto God etc.)

      In Islam the state and church were one and the same. Say what you want about Catholicism, it had quality control for weeding out the cranks. Meanwhile Protestants were creating proto Vadakayils left and right even to this day!
      There is no such quality control in Islam. Like Protestants, anyone adept in the Quran can declare himself a mullah or sheikh and declare jihad on the ruling party for not being observant enough.

      Kunal Singh and I agree on the abilities of prophet Mohammad and his mystical utterances in Arabic(their equivalent of mantras) which found its way in the Quran. However that doesn't mean that it is a religion that is easily conducive to compromise and peace.
      The biblical personalities were exposed to various empires and cultures within the years and this created a relatively cosmopolitan mindset.
      But the Quran is frozen in 7th century Arabia with its predatory ethos. And while Muslim tribesmen helped usher in a golden age of science and discovery(a lot of course based on Greek, Hindu and Babylonian works) ,severe conservatism set in after the Mongol invasions with regard to Quranic interpretation.

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    9. @Prem Chand
      Sri^infinity Ravi Shankars utterances are best ignored. It is the fuzzy thinking of sarva dharma sambhava types.

      I don't think Mecca was a Hindu temple as such but there was for sure a great degree of cross pollination between the Meccans and especially Shaivite Hindus on the west coast. Somnath in general was considered a sister temple to Mecca. And quite a few Muslims wished to destroy it as they believed that a few of the gods from Mecca escaped and sought refuge there. In the Mahmud of Ghazni was the one who won the "honor"

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    10. @Iniyavel?

      Francois Gautier is horribly misinformed about Indian history and Hinduism in general. I don't take him seriously in these fields atleast.

      Regarding LISP, start with these youtube videos, you can find more in the playlist and recommended videos. LISP is considered a rather "ugly" language because it is lacking in formal structure and elegance ,but what it lacks in form, it makes up for in power.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVBKQRijko

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    11. @JAM

      May be some online versions of the Bible are tampered with, but the NIV is a reliable scholarly work. I have read some parts in an offline edition, and I can vouch that it doesn't try to gloss over the violent parts.

      Re Hindu Maha Sabha, I agree with your viewpoint. Javed Akhtar says that Hindu and ROP fascism are two sides of the same coin. RSS has become more assimilated and mainstream while its sister orgs like VHP are stuck with their old ideologies.

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    12. @YSV

      "Somnath in general was considered a sister temple to Mecca. And quite a few Muslims wished to destroy it as they believed that a few of the gods from Mecca escaped and sought refuge there."

      Perhaps this was the opinion among Turks like Mahmud Ghazni living in the general area, but I doubt this was the mainstream belief among Muslims of the era. It could have been that the Turks needed a religious excuse to invade and loot, and they adopted this one.

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    13. @YSV

      I agree with everything you have said,but my point was that theologically Quran is of a higher standard than NT .I will reserve my opinion on OT or Talmud,as I havent read all of them yet(I read some parts online).Anyway this is my personal opinion.But as I said earlier,problem with Islam is not because of the Quran but because of the non-reformist mindset of Islamic society.

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    15. @JAM Ace Fire Dragon(wow whats next- Deuce Ice Serpent :))

      It may argued persuasively that Islam doesn't support terrorism and that the passages exhorting violence towards non believers are appropriate only during Mohammads lifetime.
      However Islam does have a strong expansion instinct and some sort of clash with non Muslims is inevitable

      Perhaps Islam may well be peaceful to the core, however proving that is pretty low on my list of priorities. Let us deal with the threat it imposes now and defeating militant Islam will defang Islam as a whole just as the Roman devastation of Judea(who used to the most troublesome province along with Germania....hmmmm) turned Jews into a race of mild mannered book keepers ..until the (re)founding of the Israel in 1948.

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    16. I take a dim view of any sort of hedonism, at the same time I believe it atleast some should be winked at by mainstream society. A mature and reasonable civilization will recognize humanity's predeliction towards the forbidden and channel it accordingly and discretely. So let people be gay, have orgies etc etc . But lets neither celebrate it nor stone them to death

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    17. @ YSV

      Deuce Ice Serpant was a funny composition :)

      Yeah I agree with you.I would never pass on islamic atrocity to jews like our neighbourhood still-to-unravel messiah does :)
      I never tried to prove that islam is a religion of peace.Rather I hold the opinion that a ROP was an utopian thing in the ancient middle east.But the hyperpatriotic netizen community mix up everything else and put the onus on Quran alone :)

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    20. @Iniyavel

      "They blame the Quran, not the certain Mullahs who radicalize the masses. They are basically fools, if not idiots. I do not waste one second on any of them losers. " -exactly.You have just nailed my stance there.Who is disagreeing that Islam was always aggressive?But the religion of Islam according to the Quran is not a bad one.It
      is the misinterpretation of Quran that has given rise to ISIS type groups.For example do we follow Manusmriti's laws or even Rig Veda strictly anymore?Or has Buddhism stuck to its hardcore nonviolence of not even killing an ant?This is the problem with Islam.They did not move on from the 6th century mindset when Quran was first written.The world is no more the Arabian peninsula of 6th century.Some of the aggressive verses of the Quran(though they also have due checks and balances throughout the Quran) were specifically meant for the contemporary hostile environment into which Islam was born.Ironically most Hindutva people who bash the quran have never read it or dont have a broader idea of the history of semitic religions.Here I must say that Capt praises Islam and Quran,but as is his nature,he blames Rothschild for the aggression and intolerance in Islam :) (probably because he is "mortally afraid" of islam as you said :) ) .Anyway hindu population in Kerala is reducing rapidly,hence I can understand Capt's mortal fear for Islam :P

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    21. @JAM

      Comparing Manu Smriti with the Quran is a typical mistake made by apologists for ROP. As the name implies, Manu Smriti is a Smriti. It was created by humans and Hindus had a choice to ignore it. Not so with ROP. The 'checks and balance' in ROP are few and far in between.

      "Ironically most Hindutva people who bash the quran have never read it or dont have a broader idea of the history of semitic religions."

      Reading the Old Testament is one of the prerequisites to get a broad idea of Semitic religions.

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    22. @PremChand

      I never compared the manusmriti with quran.Read what I wrote "For example do we follow Manusmriti's laws or even Rig Veda strictly anymore?Or has Buddhism stuck to its hardcore nonviolence of not even killing an ant?This is the problem with Islam.They did not move on from the 6th century mindset when Quran was first written.The world is no more the Arabian peninsula of 6th century." When did I compare Manusmriti with Quran?It is plain ridiculous to draw comparison between a Sanatan Dharma script like Rig Veda or Manu Smriti with an abrahamic religious book.Read clearly on what I have compared.I have compared the lack of progressiveness in Islamic society vis-a-vis other religions.Hope you get my point now.
      There are many checks and balances in the Quran when it deals with infliction of extremities.
      I agree with you that OT might be essential for a deeper understanding of semitic philosophy.I have started reading the old testament a few days ago.This is one point where I am lacking,ie,I have not yet read OT or talmud directly.I have read only 3rd person analysis (either for or against) on these books.But soon I hope to overcome this deficit.

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    24. @JAM

      I am talking about the general trend of ROP apologists, not you specifically.

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    26. @PremChand

      I am very sorry for over reacting.Iniyavel got it right,I wrongly thought that you were putting me among the bunch of ROP apologists :)
      For any future reader(particularly hindutva online fighter types :) ) on YSV's blog,I am making it clear here.I hate Islamic bigotry,radicalism and stagnance as much as any other hindutva warrior.The point where I differ with them is that original Islam as per the Quran was a product of the 6th century arab times(and actually a good religion according to its time and place of birth).Hence it is wrong to search for buddhist nonviolence and gandhian peace in the Religion of Peace.Even then Quran and Prophet Muhammad had made good attempts to straighten many on the crooked mentalities already prevalent among the existing populace of that time.Infact after going through the whole of Quran,I found that Allah through his Ayats is actually trying to pacify a group of hotheaded bigotic followers who are also sarrounded by a sea of hostile groups :)
      One dominant claim among hindutva patriots(online :) ) is that Quran didnt equate the position of women wrt men completely.But they are blissfully unaware of the plight of women in Arabian Peninsula,Europe etc before the advent of Quran.Infact the Sura Nisa of Quran(along with many other suras or subparts) makes a huge attempt to restore women from their previous slave like position to the level of human beings with some amount of freedom.

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    30. When did this comments board turn into a Friday afternoon khutbah? Whats next ?Are you going to take a page out of Justice Katju's book and fast for Ramadhan(though in your case it couldn't hurt!) I think your Islamophilia is derived from the typical cowardly double standards of atheist secularists, this time of DMK persuasion. Periyar in general went on lambasting "Aryan" Hinduism left and right but handled Islam with kid gloves and even recommended that the lower castes convert to Islam.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy_and_religion

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    33. Frankly, I am engaging in self-censorship when it comes to this topic so I am not the one to say this. But ACE, your father working in UAE does not mean you have to pull a Reza Aslan. The device in which you are reading this was probably manufactured in China. That doesn't mean you have to sing paeans for the Communist party.

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    35. @Iniyavel & PremChand

      Ok now let me intercept :) I had started this discussion initially with my observation that theoritical Islam according to the Quran is a good religion.My observation stops with that :) I find little good in Modern Islam.My point was that most Hindutva warriors have never read the Quran.As Albert Einstein also observed,Quran has good instructions for followers and believers.The problem with islamic society is that they have diluted the quran and lifted selective ayats from it to suit their needs.Apart from this as YSV observed,Islam got inseparably mingled with state machinery in islamic nations or empires.That is also a major problem atleast in modern era of globalisation,if not in the past.But I personally put all of the bigotry in Islamic society apart from the theological discussions on Islam.I believe the theology of Quranic Islam was a good one according to its times and the already degraded population which it targetted.
      had I not read the Quran entirely,I would have been the same Hindutva warrior lifting one or two ayats from quran here and there and bashing the book left and right :) All religions have more or less evolved and transcended the static parts of their scriptures.Islam couldnt do so completely,hence they are stuck in the 6th century Arabian peninsula ;) Here I am actually bashing Islam and not trying to defend its bigotry or apologise for ROP.It is their flaw that they have remained stagnant,when their abrahamic brethren Christianity or Judaism progressed.

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    37. @JAM

      Still, the common problem in medieval and modern ROP is the metaphysical part- the willingness to believe in unproven claims. This is where evil stems from. Granted, Vedic religion also has metaphysics but not as much as Abrahamic religions which is why Hinduism never saw that kind of violent history. People focus too much on political factors and leave out the influence of metaphysics on human behaviour. This is the crux of my argument.

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    38. @Iniyavel

      Honestly I don't know what is wrong with you. I don't see the need for incendiary terms like "war mongering rapist" and "pimp" to describe Islam just so you can do a u turn on your previous statements. One can be critical of Islam and indeed be more effective a critic by avoiding such loaded abusive terms.

      I like Arab culture a great deal particularly the "watered down" Levantine variety. There are some things the Arabs do better than us , they are more well mannered, are more dignified and assertive not to mention better groomed and a greater civic sense. Traits I wish the Indians possessed. OTOH despite assertive and bristly, their courage is of a fleeting sort- it just takes a little pushbackfor them to surrender. Conversely the average Indian will tolerate far more abuse and humiliation before taking up arms but when he does , he becomes a far more determined and formidable enemy.

      Periyar is relevant because he is one of your idols. Perhaps he had a role to play in that era and should be judged by the mores and restrictions of that time. However that does excuse his other failings or the institutions that he ended up founding and supporting based on his principles.
      Similarly I don't agree with Ambedkars Hindu bashing but Ambedkar had the courage of his convictions to give Islam the same treatment and felt strongly that Dalits and Indians in general were better if they converted to an Indic religion such as Buddhism than Islam which Periyar supported.

      On the flip side, in later life Savarkar was becoming increasingly unhinged and his anti Muslim and anti Buddhist ranting really hurt what could've been a great book- Six Glorious Epochs of Indian History.

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  10. Anti Semites (mis)quote the Talmud on a regular basis claiming that it makes these hatefilled claims on non Jews but the truth is more complex as mentioned, it is discussion between two rabbis about often arcane aspects of Jewish law when trying to get by in a gentile land.

    This website probably is the best rebuttal to all the notorious quotations.
    Its a tad old so ignore the poor design and annoying ads. ....Angelfire host! Remember that ? LOL
    http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/

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    1. I thought SMME and ACE were the same person. Or are they alter-egos?

      Anyway, you don't need to listen to Pamela Geller. Of course she has her own agendas. But all you need to do is open the newspaper everyday.

      I think ROP believes God has a form, but does not allow creating an earthly version of him, since it is considered 'shirk'.

      "Do buy an OLD version of King James Version instead, i.e, if you wish to read the Bible anytime in the future. It must be at least 50 years old, ..."

      Do you even know about the history of KJV? As the name implies, it was completed during the reign of King James in 1611 ie it is 400 years old, not 50. NIV uses modern English rather than the Shakespearean language used in KJV hence it is easier to understand.

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    2. @Iniyavel & PremCHand

      "The New International Version (NIV) has a LOT of verses cut out due to vested interests. Do NOT buy that." - PremChand this was the exact thing i have suspected when you differed with me on the point of violence in testaments.This is another evangelist plan by the RCC :) Iniyavel thanks for the info.

      @YSV

      Just like anti Semites misquote Talmud,similarly anti Islamists turn Quran into a demonic text by selecting one or two ayats here and there from different unrelated parts.The overreaction goes both ways.
      It is actually pretty naive of anti semites and anti islamists to think that talmud or Quran will be a gandhian buddhist nonviolent type of text.Just look at the political and social fire in which these religions were born.Even then with such an air of hostility the Quran has still attempted to reduce violence to the bare minimum by issuing strict instructions to the followers not to commit excesses beyond the bare minimum application of force.Quran has repeated it multiple times that Allah hates people who torture beyond the legally prescribed limits.
      All in all I have felt after reading the whole quran that if you filter a few irrelevant parts(like burqa etc) I think true Islam of the quran is a good path to follow for believers of abrahamic faiths.Ofcourse I again repeat that quranic theology is heaven and hell different from islamic bigotry,and I am not relating or linking the two any way.

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    3. @PremChand

      But what Iniyavel is pointing out is not the language difference but the filtering of certain verses(most probably with missionary zeal in mind :) )

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    4. @JAM and ACE

      Someone kindly specify the verses in KJV which have been filtered out in NIV.

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    7. @ Iniyavel

      Then what is the source of NIV-evangelist or catholic?either way if it has filtered inconvenient parts then I can easily sense the missionary zeal behind it :)


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    9. Some important points:

      1. The omissions are clearly not a result of missionary zeal since the most conservative evangelists prefer KJV to NIV; also look at the verses that are omitted. None of them show Christianity in a bad light. In fact, these verses are similar to what is seen regularly in the Bible. Omissions are mostly made in NT rather than OT.

      2. The omissions were done for a scholarly purpose. There is no need to assume that the KJV is accurate just because it is older. NIV translators had access to more archaic biblical texts not available to KJV translators. NIV translators believed (probably rightly) that the omitted verses were not found in the original Greek NT.

      3. Although it appears that Political Correctness is the reason for introducing gender neutrality, on closer examination it turns out that is not the case. When translators used words like man, he, him in the past, they meant it in a gender neutral way in some contexts. Clearly, NIV translators have taken that into account.

      KJV-onlyism is just another floatsam from the ocean of conspiracies.

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    10. Im sorry to sound like a Bible snob but I refer not to KJV or NIV which have their own agendas but an original Torah in Hebrew with the closest English commentary by a rabbi and the New Testament in Greek.
      I studied both languages as part of the curriculum in college but that was a long time ago and while I would be hopeless in translating entire chapters ,I know enough to get a feel and context of each word being used(after some cross referencing). Admittedly I don't always take this laborious approach but simply refer to the translations. But more often to my trusty Oxford Study Bible which contains interpretations from multiple versions.

      Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer simply take the Islamic terrorists at their word and take a literal reading of the Quran. I disagree with some of their claims but you have to admit they are a courageous lot.
      And yes yes I know they are Zionists booga booga booga!

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    12. I have no desire to volunteer or support Gellers efforts but a larger issue is stake here which she is trying to bring to light ie. free speech
      Breiviks was a madman who picked and chose quotes at random. And his victims were mostly Norweigan Christians , not muslims

      Neither should Hindutva goons terrorize MF Hussain nor should Muslims be allowed to engage in slaughtering artists for trampling their sensitivities. Every one should just relax. I grew up seeing cartoons about Hindu gods in Telugu magazines. One particularly funny one was where Parvathi was trying to capture Ganga sprouting from Shivas hair in a pot whilst complaining that Shiva is generous to others while they are suffering a water shortage! I think was a reference to some contemporary water sharing issue between states!

      According to Iniyavel logic, I should whip myself into a fury and string up the cartoonist by piano wire!As I said everyone should relax , especially you unless you want to turn into your latest hero Vivek Iyer or your former messiah who will be left unmentioned.
      Get out of the fucking house and get some cardio. And don't make excuses about the weather fatty! A guy your age simply shouldn't be out of shape. Bad form leads to bad thoughts. And it shows

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    13. @ACE

      "In Protestant Bibles and in NIV, there were inclusions of books from other works as well"

      You have reversed the situation. Catholics and Orthodox consider these books as part of the bible, while Protestants consider it as aprocrypha (but still important spiritual books).

      Look at the verses before and after Matthew 23:14, which were not omitted:

      "13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? "

      I know what you mean by 'some other people'. Regardless, these verses show that Matthew 23:14 was removed not because of its offensive content, but because it was judged by scholars to be unoriginal inclusion by later scribes. This verse was apparently not found in the earliest manuscripts.

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    14. @YSV

      I don't quite support intentionally provocative expressions like turning Hindu goddesses into shiksa goddesses or competitions to draw Muhammad. If the only defense you can provide for your creation is that it is not illegal, then may be you shouldn't have created it in the first place. That said, I don't support death threats against the creators of course :)

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    16. NIV is not uniformly gender neutral; only where context requires it.

      I am not denying that NIV translators made errors. Of course there are many other modern translations like NRSV. But the errors in NIV are not the product of conspiracy. My opinion is that put together, these modern versions are superior to KJV. Other than the obsolete language, KJV translators did not have the level of quality control practiced by modern scholars or the various ancient manuscripts that have been excavated since 19th century. IMO, KJV-onlyists are simpletons because they don't consider these factors.

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    18. @PremChand

      Hmmm I can sense that you have developed deep connections with evangelist+zionist plans of Rothschild :) How much does Mike pay you for this :P ? Or maybe I should ask the capt :)

      @ YSV

      What's your opinion about the current Greek bank crisis?

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    20. Re Greek crisis

      @Iniyavel "International banksters" by which you mean a codeword for jooooooooooos! Hahahaha! It is not the Jews who put a gun to the heads of the Greeks and forced them to take on easy credit where they could enjoy lifestyle their couldn't afford due to the low productivity of the Greek economy. It wasn't a Zionist scheme for the lazy Greeks to demand two months paid leave per year when the rest of the developed world gets by on 3 weeks ,neither was it a Talmudic plot that the overwhelming majority of the Greek economy is the parasitical public sector which squashes private enterprise even as it feeds on it like a vampire.
      Greece is a subsistence and tourist economy. In other words the Egypt of Europe and its economy is just the same.
      Opening a fucking textbook on economic for Christ sake. Just make sure its not Keynesian.

      @JAM Greece as Iniyavel said will default. It was only a matter of time. However note how gingerly he said "Russia has offered to help with loans now". With Russia ,nothing is free, for sure they will demand a presence in the Aegean perhaps fulfilling Peter the Greats dream of a warm water port.

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    21. @YSV

      " It wasn't a Zionist scheme for the lazy Greeks to demand two months paid leave per year when the rest of the developed world gets by on 3 weeks ,neither was it a Talmudic plot that the overwhelming majority of the Greek economy is the parasitical public sector which squashes private enterprise even as it feeds on it like a vampire." - LOOOOLLLLL :-)

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    23. @ Iniyavel

      Relax bro YSV cracks such esoteric humour every now and then :)

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    25. Normally "international banksters" is a code for Jews on Wall Street or Rothschilds or just Jews in particular. Greeks in general are very anti Semitc as contrasted to the more philo Semitic Italians.

      It is probably a recent phenomenon and nothing to do with the lingering hatreds from the Seleucid occupation and the Maccadean wars. Greeks ,Jews and Armenians were competing communities in the Ottoman Empire as each provided mercantile, administrative and translation services.

      Of course of these only Jews were ones without a homeland so they weren't considered a threat to the Young Turks' European style secular linguistic nationalism (however with a dose of kafir hatred) and were spared the genocide and expulsions which Armenians and Greeks endured.

      There is great resentment by the Greek and Armenian lobbies in U.S as the pro Israel lobby routinely compels the U.S government not to recognize the Armenian genocide due to Israel's hitherto warm relations with Turkey.
      But with Erdogan ,things are changing and Israel finds itself in alliance with Greece and Cyprus. And it is going as far as to recognize their claims to rich gas reserves in the Eastern Mediterranean.

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  12. Here is an article if anyone's in the mood for some hilarity:

    http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/50948.html

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    2. From the story...

      "Manzoor has been booked under section 292 of the Indian Penal Code (obscene and indecent advertisement and display), the Indecent Representation of Women (Prohibition) Act, and various sections of the Information Technology Act."

      So you have three different laws for essentially the same thing? It is regulatory overload. No wonder the court system is backed up. And each of these laws seems notoriously subjective and vague and therefore susceptible to give prosecutors a free hand in trampling(whatever little) civil liberties the Indian citizen has today.

      As for porn, I mean really, a 12 year boy can bypass the few lame proxies and access porn.
      When will those who wish to follow the letter and spirit of the law with respect to"indecent representation of women" get around to smashing Khajuraho and other imagery present in temples?

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    4. The way the article reported the event like it is a regular news item was funny. :)

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    5. so much for Capt's state which actually built the whole world :) namboothiris travelled to all nations and gave birth to all cultures :P

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