Hindutvadi fascists who praise diversity of Hinduism are shocked that Hindus are diverse
While I may sound like a secularist for referring to Hindutvadis as fascist, one has to keep in mind that I find Indian society in general irrespective of political ideology, religion , class or caste to be quite fascist as in hardly any of them respect free speech , easily create mobs ,incite riots and destruction of property, refer to politicians as brothers, uncles and mothers and so on
By Western standards this is very much a fascist mindset.
However in singling out Hindutvadis in this instance is their distaste for diversity. Fascists dont care for diversity as it gets in the way of their agenda. While I admire Savarkar, there are many things he didnt give a lot of thought to such as his declaration of "One nation,one religion, one language". Sure the nation is India, the religion is Hinduism , but which language was it that he had in mind. We have seen how Hindi is a no go for most Indians not from the Hindi belt.
Regarding Hinduism we have to ask which Hinduism did he have in mind, was that of Vedic homas, the Kayashta and Banias "shubh labh" with Ganesha , Lakshmi their shops or the more aggressive Devi worship of the warrior and yeoman peasant castes?
I find it amazing that Hindutvadis often praise South India for retaining much of Vedic and Agamic culture during the Muslim invasions but then are aghast that they are into bull running, buffalo sacrificing and consume copious amounts of beef, chicken and mutton. And this they blame on some Periyar Dalit Missionary Communist nexus. Now to be sure all of these boogeyman like to taunt conservative Hindus by eating beef.
But that is a recent trend. Generally regarding diet, south Indians have a live and let live attitude.The history of beef in India is complex and like many aspects of Indian history, should be examined via a deconstructionist viewpoint by looking eras, castes, customs, motives ,sub cultures etc. Not to mention the distinction between cow and buffalo beef which has been steadily eroded over the last 20 years.
Since the Sangam era and collapse of the Mauryas, much of India not to mention southern India was inspired by the Buddhist and Jain ethos with its emphasis of non aggression(later became non violence) and vegetarianism. Gradually meat of all sorts became taboo until the rise of peripheral kingdoms such as Hoysalas , Kakatiyas, Palas and Yadavas. These were formed by those who were either at the bottom of the caste system or outside it altogether such as Hoysalas(founded by pastoral shepherds) and Kakatiyas(bonded laborers who became generals of an earlier dynasty)
Hence a lot of earthy and hardy customs which went in decline such as meat, alcohol, celebration of warfare became back in style.
While all kingdoms took part in war,they considered it be sinful and hence the commissioning of large temples as the Cholas and Chalukyas did in order to wash away their sin of bloodshed.
Kakatiyas were least bothered and indeed believed the proper way for a man to die was on the battlefield and would be greeted by nymphs.
Tamils particularly Maravars and Gounders till the 18th century would cut a stillborn baby with a sword because they believed that only a slain warrior could go to heaven.
And their traditions and diet reflected this mindset.
While Hindutva admired warriors or rather their comic book idea of a noble Rajput or Maratha warrior, this aspect of warriordom is too much for them to handle. As much of Hindutva is run by baniyas and Brahmans not Kshatriyas and Shudras. I am not just talking about caste but more importantly the mentality. Varna doesnt always match jati but there is a correlation in this party
This is not to say I dont think there are aspects in which the Hindi heartland has a leg up over south or East Indians. I find their indifference to movie stars trying to be politicians to be quite refreshing and rational. Also they frown upon cousin marriages not to mention uncle niece marriages which fill them with horror.
I would not mind if they spoke more strongly against these.But historically they didnt . The law giver Baudhayana allowed cousin marriage for south Indians even if he considered sinful for Madhyadesha. But my point is not strictly whether customs across the country are good or bad. My point is about diversity of culture which has its colorful as well as dark aspects.
The problem I see is that due to the bewildering complexity of Hinduism, the one symbol the upper castes chose to rally around is the cow based on the flawed belief that it was always held sacred.
And therefore any threat to the cows well being is considered a threat to Hinduism
How disgraceful and shameful that a religion that is so rich in theology, music, drama, liturgy,dance,architecture, sculpture, philosophy and tradition is defined by something so stupid which has hardly any basis on the shrutis which are paramount rather than the smritis.
So the cow is the enemy of diversity and by inference the enemy of what made Hinduism vast and complex belief system. So therefore kill the cow as Yajnavalkya recommends as this is Shishir(which is my name) ritu , its the best time to consume beef.
Bon Apettit.
Sir,
ReplyDelete/While I may sound like a secularist for referring to Hindutvadis as fascist, one has to keep in mind that I find Indian society in general irrespective of political ideology, religion , class or caste to be quite fascist/
You just nailed it!
What is the meaning of Shishir Ritu? And is any document written by Yajnavalkya available?
I asked you about Tantra because somewhere you mentioned Chandi Devi and Kashmora. I want to know how I can use black magic not to harm someone but to help myself. That is why I asked you about it in the other post.
Thanks.
"What is the meaning of Shishir Ritu" --- Winter season :)
ReplyDelete" and Kakatiyas(bonded laborers who became generals of an earlier dynasty)" --- YSV saar, Wasn't aware of this bonded laborer origin ? Could you point out the source ? Is it Talbot ?
Apologies for the delay. Thanks for the info.
DeleteBefore Andhra and Telenganas was ruled by Brahminical dynasties such as Vishnukundins, Salankayanas or Satavahanas and Pallavas. Now its debatable whether these were Brahmins themselves or were imitating Brahmins and patronizing them to such an extant that they were called Brahmins. In any event, one of the ways of patronizing Brahmins was to provide free land for cultivation , this was called aagraham or Brahmadeya. Of course this land often belonged to other castes and these castes were often stripped of their land and or worse made to serve in as serfs. Even non Brahmin dynasties such as Cholas and Chalukyas indulged in the same though perhaps not to the same degree. One ofthe reasons why centralized kingdoms in south India were hard to maintain were due to constant peasant rebellion against their overlords. These were really the proto types of the Telengana rebellion against first their upper caste Velama and Reddy oppressors and then against the higher up Muslims.
DeleteNow around this time you had the rise of Lingayats which was a social egalitarian and martial movement similar to Sikhism. Inspired by these indirectly(not much Lingayatism historically in AP) Kakatiyas managed to escape their serf status by taking up military positions under the Eastern Chalukyas I think. By this time E Chalukyas were thoroughly Teluguized with little trace of Kannada origin and hence were not averse to having local troops in elite positions.
Later Kakatiyas when they siezed power claimed to be greater than the solar and lunar dynasties. Keep in mind at this time they were sorrounded by Yadavas(lunar) and Cholas(solar) and did not bother to placate Brahmins to make up such geneologies for them. They seemed proud of their lower caste routes without resorting to become Kshatriya. Somethig Gujjar pastoralists and later Marathi speaking farmers managed by becoming Rajput and Maratha Kshatriya respectively by their military success but more importantly getting Brahmins to perform elaborate ceremonies most famous being Shivaji and Gaga Bhatt.
you see the problem "tim drak " rants some random bullshit then "in comes "another Dhimmie " wildfire" , who rants about Tamil nadu other nonsense then he plugs-in random reference to Andhra ,and here enters our Resident scholar and expert in Bullshittry YSV RAO who also has opinion on everything. he plugins another random reference to Bengal LO BEHOLD !!the eternal doormat jam chimes in as guset reference
Deletewe see this circular pattern is repeated through out the blog over and over again as ,if one man ie YSV_RAO is chatting with himself with different fake names it truly pity this man!!
DeleteWhat do you hope to achieve by regurgitating this constant bullshit over and over again.
DeleteThere are more trolls here than on Captains site as he believes in strict censorship. If you have to bullshit atleast do it about something people dont know about rather than something that is obvious. This approach of yours along with your poor communication skills, sad attempts at humor prove you to be very low IQ
let address this point by point
Delete"What do you hope to achieve by regurgitating this constant bullshit over and over again."( its u who is the guilty one here merely "regurgitating" everything on msm to comment section and article )
There are more trolls here than on Captains site as he believes in strict censorship (I have not defended captain anywhere in my comments just because I exposed your hypocrisy ur quick to label me as his follower this proves that your more illiterate than me )
This approach of yours along with your poor communication skills, sad attempts at humour prove you to be very low IQ ( go fU%$%% yourself iam not comedian to humour you iam here to expose your true hypocrisy to the world)
you have opinion about many subjects but lack audience ,in your frustration you have created persona to randomly chat about thing that appear in media. you have written many words in comment section than actual article .the only credit I can give you respect free speech but you lack consistency in words you express.
DeleteI will repeat what I said just because I wrote a critical comments about you doesn't automatically make me a captains supporter in fact I equally dislike both you but since you respect free speech i will critique you about the approach to the articles, opinion and people .
DeleteAbcdef..
DeleteEven critical comments or observations have a standard of their own,unless nowadays trolling is amounting to critical thinking ,in this era of degraded online discourse 😐
If ysv really lacks audience or readership for his blog,why the heck are u wasting all day trolling him here and becoming an audience urself :) ? At least u can stay a silent audience,instead of loading up the comment section here in this blog with ur jerk and goo,u can shed that elsewhere ,I understand that Capt blog and his naked pics indeed raise ur desire 😁
There are more trolls here than on Captains site as he believes in strict censorship (I have not defended captain anywhere in my comments just because I exposed your hypocrisy ur quick to label me as his follower this proves that your more illiterate than me )
DeleteThis approach of yours along with your poor communication skills, sad attempts at humour prove you to be very low IQ ( go fU%$%% yourself iam not comedian to humour you iam here to expose your true hypocrisy to the world)
What hypocrisy did you expose exactly? As in what did I claim to do vs what I actually did. When these two are in conflict, that is hypocrisy
If you are stating that I am hypocritical because I mock the captain and his minions and on the other hand, maintain my own sockpuppet accounts. That doesnt make sense for too many reasons
1. I NEVER stated that the captain maintains sockpuppet accounts. I believe all of his followers are genuine idiots
2. You have not provided any proof whatsoever that JAM, Tim Drake,Wildfire etc are my alter egos. Haha in that case, I suppose I suffer from multiple personality disorder as these two have considerable different viewpoints apart from a distaste for Hindutva types or maybe thats your main ahem beef
If OTOH you are referring to Amith Mishra, this guy routinely comes here trolls absolute nonsense such as posting Hindi songs and calling all of us gay or making cringeworthy juvenile jokes than even 4 year old kid would roll his eyes at such as referring to the poster JAM as Kissan Jam. Get it because he has the same name as a condiment. hahahahaha. Stand back Russel Peters, there is a new player in town!
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abcindiegogoFebruary 24, 2019 at 8:47 AM
you have opinion about many subjects but lack audience ,in your frustration you have created persona to randomly chat about thing that appear in media. you have written many words in comment section than actual article .the only credit I can give you respect free speech but you lack consistency in words you express.
Yes I contribute more to comments than my actual article. Oh my god someone notify Interpol so they can prioritize their efforts in stopping this rather than concentrating on child sex trafficking and homicidal drug runners.
abcindiegogoFebruary 24, 2019 at 8:52 AM
I will repeat what I said just because I wrote a critical comments about you doesn't automatically make me a captains supporter in fact I equally dislike both you but since you respect free speech i will critique you about the approach to the articles, opinion and people .
All captain supporters come here fraudulently pretending to be neutral and they get exposed as his bootlickers eventually.
What articles, opinion and people do you wish to critique? I dont see you writing or contributing anything meaningful or participating in any of the conversations. Unless you see these posts of you as incredibly intellectual. In that case god help you.
While I may sound like a secularist for referring to Hindutvadis as fascist, one has to keep in mind that I find Indian society in general irrespective of political ideology, religion , class or caste to be quite fascist as in hardly any of them respect free speech , easily create mobs ,incite riots and destruction of property, refer to politicians as brothers, uncles and mothers and so on
ReplyDeleteBy Western standards this is very much a fascist mindset.------ and with this,ysv is back in his old razor sharp mood :) i thoroughly enjoyed reading this post ,each line of it :) _/\_
Cousin marriages definitely are frowned upon across north India and even in odisha or Bengal ,ie eastern sides (I am not sure about the north Eastern hilly regions or ashta Lakshmi states ,they have different social customs) . But apart from this,north India is faring poorly when it comes to ensuring rights of women or girl child ,and even with incest marriage as social norms,south is still ahead on this front ,as per my understanding,I may also be flawed. However haryana govt has done superb work on this front ,by the efforts of the current bjp cm.
Ysv over time as I am reading more into rishi aurobindo ,his books like 'the human cycle' ,his ideas of nationalism,patriotism etc ,I am realising that aurobindo's version of a future Hindu civilization even for the material or civilozational aspect ,not just the spiritual or transcendental as in 'the life divine' ,carries some wonderful insights ,hitherto unexplored or poorly explored ,at most . U may be able to throw better light on this .
Beef is too complex an issue if we keep the whole of India in mind,thus it's best that it's not used to raise cheap sentimentalism like Hindi heartland does,and tries to impose it on ROI. Interestingly the bengali Hindu society rigidly avoids beef (never mind a few commies who eat it on streets to show solidarity suth Muslims ),yet Bengal is heavily a nonveg state.thus it varies from region to region,no point raising it either in favour or agnst ,because local people of a certain region derive food habits based on social evolution+ availability + a host of factors ,of late economic growth being a major influence as well.
Few days back I was seeing a claim on Twitter that even Japan was a vegan island before apparently USA or west injected nonveg into her 😊 honestly going by common sense,I find it a bit hard to digest ,because Japan has always been rich in fish ,thus the population there will naturally inclined towards fish as food . But beyond this ,I know nothing about Japanese history to comment on it .
JAM,regarding Japan being vegan island, i think you might have misread it. What i have read is that most Japanese rarely ate beef(or perhaps never !!!) as these animals were employed in agriculture. Add influence of Buddhism to that.
DeleteJAM, a question to you regarding prevalence of non-vegetarianism in Bengal. Were the brahmins of bengal eating non-veg food (especially fish) historically or is this a recent practice among them ?
Tim
DeleteVery sorry bro,I had read ur comments but forgot to reply,and in the meantime it went down from the comment display section ,thus I missed 🙏🙏
It seems nonveg was always there in Bengal. To be honest,the whole of ancient bengal is yet to be clearly reconstructed ,for example traces of atleast 2 millennia old civilization are slowly being unearthed in mangrove belt of Bengal ,but it's not clear as if now ,such excavations and subsequent historical documentation will take years to complete.thr Bengal that mean today started off from the pala dynasty ,and at least since that time,ie,8th century onwards,we can safely say Bengal has been nonveg and fish eating. Before that,the history becomes unclear due to lack of sources .but I think this area has always been nonveg ,because of abundance of fish due to countless rivers,streams and water bodies in Bengal by nature of it's geography,and adding to that,aagriculture and horticulture was probably not as developed or as abundant as it is now,this is just my guess,ysv would know better on this 🙏
"even Japan was a vegan island before apparently USA or west injected nonveg into her 😊 "
ReplyDeleteHahaha! Well actually the reality much of the world was functionally vegetarian most of the time due to lack of refrigeration and the lack of mechanized devices we take for granted today means that one tended to expend a lot of calories so it tended to be carb heavy. Even Roman soldiers consumed a vegetarian diet for the most part. They observed that excessive use of meat and alcohol made Germans aggressive but also lazy during downtime which made them easy pickings for the Romans south of the Rhine anyway.
Meat was for special occasions unless you are an aristocrat.
Japanese similar to Hindus held leatherworkers and butchers in contempt as a sort of untouchable(burakamin). The post Meiji Reformation type of egalitarianism maintained the appeal of Buddhism as spiritual counsel but found it unsuitable to run a society. Post WWII , a lot of romanticism of the Samurai which the Meiji squashed came back to the fore especially with Kurosawa movies, hentai and video games and burakamin were once again given a raw deal. They traditionally worked in shoe stores and it was customary for a client to kick them if they did not like his recommendation. This all ended when Burakamin along with Nipponized Koreans formed the basis of Yakuza or the Japanese mob.
Anyway Japanese beef specically Kobe beef is world famous. I saw a documentary where the cows are treated like royalty and even allowed to drink saki and the cowherds spray beer on them for their comfort LOL
KObe is one of the most expensive beef in the world.
Shinto is similar to Native American shamanism in that while killing the animal for its meat, they do utter a prayer thanking the animal
Overenthusiastic vegetarians in India either misrepresented or misunderstood the above facts to show Japan as vegetarian
Though they are vegan to the extant that they dont consume much milk products just as the Chinese
Regarding beef in India, I think the problem these days is the lack of distinction between buffalo and cow meat. If there was a seperate word for buffalo meat, then it might not be such a big deal. The word beef itself triggers a lot of people though mutton or veal doesnt.
In the west beef is associated exclusively with cow meat. Much of Indias beef actually comes from buffaloes which Hindutvadis hardly ever mention.
Its the association of buffalo with Mahisasura that compels some intellectuals to create a lame narrative about Indo Aryan Durga oppressing buffalo loving tribals. A lot of these problems are caused by people like Raja Ravi Varma and the conventions they established which are followed by Amar Chitra Katha etc where demons are shown as dark skinned hence ugly(as the thought process goes). Rakshasas and Asuras are actually renowned for their beauty. And half of these Rakshasas such as Ravana and Hiranyakasipu are actually Brahmins or Kshatriyas.
I think Kerala eats a lot of beef just for contrarian reasons like Bengali communists. Nairs were for most part vegetarian apart from consuming fish. I think the custom of sacrificing buffaloes and eating their beef came from Mysore and Tulunad to the north relatively later.
"Its the association of buffalo with Mahisasura that compels some intellectuals to create a lame narrative about Indo Aryan Durga oppressing buffalo loving tribals." --- This kimd of narrative is becoming more common lol. One journo on twitter even claimed that vegetarianism in india comes from caste prejudive elsewhere it ces from 'noble reasons'. Ywitter is an extremely sick place though.
ReplyDeleteAs for buffaloes loving tribals, if am not wrong the only tribals that were buffaloe pastoralists are/were the Todas and some neighbouring tribes and Todas are no moolnivasis :).
The central indian austroasiatic speaking tribals weren't buffalo rearing.
"I think the custom of sacrificing buffaloes and eating their beef came from Mysore and Tulunad to the north relatively later." --- I am not so sure that buffalo sacrificing in north is relatively recent
Im not saying that tribals had nothing to do with buffaloes but that it doesnt mean they used to worship Mahisasura or that conflict was symbolism of Vedic vs tribal
DeleteTodas are into the buffalo a great deal and consider it quite sacred . But they are lactovegetarian and avoid meat. That makes them different from rest of south indians as most south indians cant quite handle too much milk and milk products in adult hood
I am not so sure that buffalo sacrificing in north is relatively recent"
I was talking specifically about Kerala. In the north you find buffalo sacrifice in HP, Bihar and Assam I believe. Not sure about Bengal. Perhaps JAM can weigh in.
Ysv
DeleteBuffalo sacrifice was pretty common in many temples of north and Bengal as well ,even all the way upto the British era .in many temples,the practice was discontinued for a host of reasons ,like the fall of general social demand for sacrifice being one of them . Infact not just buffalo,in a few shaktipeeths like kamakhya for example,even human sacrifice was there,these things were abolished by the incumbent British administration altogether . Even interesting thing is that in case of human sacrifice rituals,often the person to be sacrificed actually volunteered himself ,and he was treated like a king for one year,with all luxuries given to him,even the freedom to choose his own women for enjoyment ,for one whole year . Anyway I am straying off here,what I mean to say is that ,buffalo sacrifice becomes a pretty normal thing compared to the original tradition of human sacrifice . And in few temples of Bengal ,it continues till date .though buffalo is avoided for one particular reason related to the Bali ,it's hard to cut off buffalo head in one chop,and unless u do that , if u have to do it in multiple chops ,then it's considered Ill omen . Thus many erstwhile buffalo sacrifice traditions moved on either to goat or even simpler,just vegetable Bali .
Thanks for the info. You have to be really strong to chop off the head in one go which is why the honor was given to warriors I suppose.
Delete"Even interesting thing is that in case of human sacrifice rituals,often the person to be sacrificed actually volunteered himself ,and he was treated like a king for one year,with all luxuries given to him,even the freedom to choose his own women for enjoyment ,for one whole year ."
Hahaha! Better live like a king for a day than be a beggar for rest of your life. I must those guys running the sacrifice knew their human psychology and incentives pretty well!
I saw buffalo sacrifice on a massive scale in Assam where even Brahmins get into it. And bathe in the blood. I believe Assam ,Nepal and perhaps Manipur preserve the culture of Vedic and Puranic Hinduism in the north prior to it being influenced by Shramanic religions.
Bengal is similar except the worship of Kali is watered down a bit. Kali is really not meant for proper bourgeois society but ascetics. Shiva was the same till he was tamed by Parvathi i.e his philosophy became compatible with proper society (Parvathi or Samkhya represented the senses and the material world)
Many Shaivites in TN and Karnataka are vegetarian because in the Chola era, there were many clashes between Jains and Shaivites and Shaivites finally got the upper hand and Jains ended up converting to Shaivism and their temples were reconfigured as Shiva temples and they maintained their vegetarian habits. Under the influence of Brahmins, original Shaivites especially upper castes did the same.
One finds strict vegetarian Brahmins only in UP , Punjab,Maharashtra Gujarat, Haryana,Bihar and south India. The rest of the Brahmins in India have a cavalier attitude to diet. I dont know why this is.
Bengal is similar except the worship of Kali is watered down a bit. Kali is really not meant for proper bourgeois society but ascetics. Shiva was the same till he was tamed by Parvathi i.e his philosophy became compatible with proper society (Parvathi or Samkhya represented the senses and the material world)--- wonderful analysis 🙏🙏 the watering down of Bengal tantra tradition was triggered by gaudiya vaishnavism movement initiated by chaitanya dev. And thus the tantrik schools started bringing in softer forms of Kali like shyama kali for example,into mainstream ,because the puja of 10 mahavidyas were getting harder and harder to sustain . But I guess Assam or north east didn't face this problem of Krishna overpowering kali,thus there the original forms if puja continued ,hence the predominance of buffalo sacrifice in those places ,even Nepal ,till date .
DeleteHahaha! Better live like a king for a day than be a beggar for rest of your life. I must those guys running the sacrifice knew their human psychology and incentives pretty well!--- yeah they understood the core of life,live like a king,as long as u live ,because all of us will die anyway 😁😁 but these bits of history show that north east and Bengal traditionally had a more liberal view on women mingling with men even back in those pre British times ,because people chosen for human sacrifice, particularly in North East tribes,were given freedom to choose as many women they liked,for their bhoga,even married women as well.
Vegetarianism in UP might have something to do with the rich fertile multi crop soil of those areas . I mean the food habits might have been shaped by food availability.
"Todas are into the buffalo a great deal and consider it quite sacred. But they are lactovegetarian and avoid meat." --- Yes, you are right that Todas are highly lactose-tolerant.https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/29/1/249/1749245
ReplyDeleteQuoting from above --- " Its frequency in the Toda, who are pastoralists and herders of water buffaloes, is 0.091 (n = 55), much lower than the observed value for -13910*T for the same group (0.445) but still worthy of note. "
Now this -13910*T is the same allele that's responsible for lactose tolerance in north indians and europeans (the middle eastern and african ones are different) and this allele has been found in bronze age skeletons from steppe region
. Yet linguists say toda show no traces of other languages other than dravidian. Fascinating !!
Interesting because nothing about Todas suggest an Indo Aryan origin. The distinctive culture of the Todas led some British to speculate they were descended from Sumerians, Hittites or even Israelites LOL.
DeleteIm surprised too that they are associated with steppes. I thought west Asia was the best bet.
"Im surprised too that they are associated with steppes" -- I am only talking abt the lactose-tolerance allele which they share with ancient Bronze age steppe skeletons and modern day NW Indians. I don't have their autosomal DNA analysis but from Y-chromosome perpespective, they have high frequency of Y-haplogroup J2a-M68 which has it's origin in West Asia/Middle East region as you said.
ReplyDeleteAh ok , I missed that part. I dont know how that occurs. My knowledge of genetics is rudimentary.
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