One way street admiration - Parsees and Hindus
I am glad I came across this insight from Koenraad Elst when I was actually rather young- Sikhs have only contempt for Hindus because the latter slobber over them and call them saviors. Well mostly North western Hindus such as Punjabis, Sindhis and the like. However many of these extrapolated their experience to Hindus across India. Hence I have seen Hindutva sites authored by Bengalis and South Indians and the like who claim that Sikhs were the sword arm of Hindus. Even as Sikhs had exactly zero influence in liberating these areas from Islamic rule. This level of self debasement attracts contempt as that is but natural. Hence Sikhs saw themselves are intrinsically superior . Of course the "martial race" propaganda and their disproportionate representation in armed forces also led to this attitude. This in turn led to movements such as Khalistan and a near permanent rupturing between Hindus and Sikhs.
As it stands Sikhs are not really an ethnicity which feels more loyalty to India but more to U.K as their identity was formed and forged in the British colonial era to suit their ends.
So it follows with another "model minority" Hindus(whether Hindutva or secular) salivate over - the Parsees. In reality Parsees conversely should be grateful to Hindus for saving them from Islamic persecution and regard them as saviors and express gratitude accordingly. But no.
Whether Muslim or British colonial rule they sided with the oppressor . During the partition riots they were "neutral". Hindus accept this and ask no further questions. If they did , they would discover these nuggets
From Maria Misra's "Vishnu's Crowded Temple"
Parsees considered it below their dignity to play cricket with Hindus and only wished to play with Europeans.
Meanwhile we have Parsees openly wishing for British to return to India and rule over them. Such as the restauranter Boman Kohinoor who told a rather embarrassed British chef Rick Stein to ask Queen Elizabeth to return to India and continue her rule. Stein's Indian guide deftly ignored the doddering old fool and refocussed attention to the cuisine.
Kalchiron had a good take on the film Good Shepherd in the context of Indian history. It is an exchange between an Italian Gangster and a WASP CIA operative who traced his descent from the original settlers.
Joseph Palmi: Let me ask you something... we Italians, we got our families, and we got the church; the Irish, they have the homeland, Jews their tradition; even the blacks, they got their music. What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you (WASPs) have?
Edward Wilson: We have United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.
Of course today WASPs are a minority overtaken by German ,Italian ,Irish and Scots Irish demographically. However their culture and political influence predominates. In the last 200 years every President apart from JFK,Eisenhower and now Donald Trump had strong links to these families.Even Obama from his mothers side was had these lineages. It is another matter that these aforementioned exceptions were hated by the establishment for their populist ideals.The Ivy League, CIA, FBI and until recently the Navy and Marines were disproportionately WASPish. The Army and Air Force were Scots Irish institutions.
WASP could not manage to subsume these other white ethnicities due to their innate sense of superiority. Similarly Hindu close mindedness alienated many Kashmiris to remain Muslims and nearly isolated Tamil and Northeastern versions of the religion. British thinking the Parsees to be "Aryan" and superior to Hindus placed them in various military positions often to their protests. Besides the heroism of "Sam" Manekshaw there is no other well known or perhaps the only noteworthy Parsee military figure in the last 1500 years.
I saw a documentary where a Parsee lady almost weeps when speaking of the British departure , and states that they feel orphaned.
Buddhau Kohinoor, wretched Parsee hag and all others ,remember this- you are just visiting. This is no longer your home. You have forfeited your rights a long long time ago. Before even the British arrived. If Hindus /Hindutvas what have you had any self respect, you practitioners of a simplistic childishly binary corruption of Vedic religion would start packing about now and purchase one way tickets to London. But Hindus being the way they are today Parsees may continue to associate only with Europeans , thumb their nose at Hindus and expect the latter to sing their praises of industry, charity and education.
"As it stands Sikhs are not really an ethnicity which feels more loyalty to India but more to U.K " ---- Hahaha, these days they feel more loyalty towards canada 😂.
ReplyDeleteRe parsees not playing with hindus , considering the division and tribalism that existed back then in the subcontinent, one shouldn't overthink about it, after all , upper castes hindus didn't associate with lower castes and practiced this sort of snobbery themselves.
As for their sense superiority, their distinctive physical appearances might have played a major role in this. It's exactly due to this that the british considered them to be more "Aryan" and therefore, showered them with all the goodies.
Their numbers are dwindling very fast and probably, there wouldn't be a "pure" parsi left by the end of century.
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A separate question - We are in the midst of navratri and i find it amazing how different people of the subcontinent celebrate in different ways on the same nine days. From simply worshipping their kul devi and local goddesses to worshippping a 'centralized' deity, Durga to ravana burning and etc.
What's the origin of navaratri and when did the idea of sacredness of these 9 days spread across the subcontinent ?
Delete"Re parsees not playing with hindus , considering the division and tribalism that existed back then in the subcontinent, one shouldn't overthink about it, after all , upper castes hindus didn't associate with lower castes and practiced this sort of snobbery themselves."
Sure, there was tribalism. But lower castes are expected to dislike upper castes and vice versa. In contrast Parsees owe Hindus a debt ,as per their own traditions, for saving thei hide.
"As for their sense superiority, their distinctive physical appearances might have played a major role in this. It's exactly due to this that the british considered them to be more "Aryan" and therefore, showered them with all the goodies.
Their numbers are dwindling very fast and probably, there wouldn't be a "pure" parsi left by the end of century."
This is not me being snide but honestly a good looking Parsee in prime health -man or woman- is a rarity. I did think Perizaad Zorabiaan was rather dishy but she is the exceptio rather than the rule. The "Aryan" looks are not doing this community any favors. Sindhis and Punjabis on average are far better looking.
This shows the nonsensical and arbitrary criteria for assigning martial race status by the British
I will adresss the issue of Navaratri in a later post. Fasting takes a lot of me these days.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"honestly a good looking Parsee in prime health -man or woman- is a rarity." -- Well, that has probably got to do with endogamy within a population of very small size. Read somewhere that they have higher incidences of certain diseases.
Delete"Well, that has probably got to do with endogamy within a population of very small size. Read somewhere that they have higher incidences of certain diseases."
DeleteYes this is also an issue with Orthodox Jews and the Amish. The antisemitic caricatures of weird looking Jews with twisted features were based on experiences with Orthodox Jews. Contrast these to the stunning mainstream Israeli Jews who are a mixture of Russian , Arab, German and other gene pools.
"Yes this is also an issue with Orthodox Jews and the Amish. " ---
ReplyDeleteDavid Reich, a geneticist from Harvard, who himself is a Jew, wrote about how many indian jaatis and tribes turn out to be more endogamous than ashkenazi jews, so we shouldn't be surprised if we find variations in frequencies of certains diseases across populations.
Now, David Reich didn't say this but stronger endogamy also means variations in other traits across populations, some people (especially a section of right wing hindus on twitter) hypothesize that this is the reason why we find more academically oriented/intelligent people from certain groups.
To be honest, this assertion of theirs may have some merit.
YSV
ReplyDeletewonderful dissection on the parsee-hindu interaction and the true worth of parsees wrt indic civilization. I agree that the religion of parsees seems at best a lost offshoot to vedic hinduism,thus when it comes to religion,parsees have nothing to be proud of over Hindus.However I believe that otherwise modern parsees arent exactly antithetical to india,even though a few of them may be dreaming of returning to british raj where they enjoyed somewhat more of communal privilege as per their thinking. If parsees show ingratitude to india and its mainstream hindu population,it will only add to their own bad karma.
As for endogamy,I think even the tamil brahmin community has a tendency of exhibiting certain genetic disorders,and this community is otherwise highly established across the globe with good educational levels,so maybe endogamy has its own advantages. however,whether endogamy or rather the cultural background of a population matters in their educational foothold,is something that would be hard to sort out. Would the orthodox jews or tamil brahmins have shown lesser intelligence levels without endogamy traits? I think modern genetics hasnt yet reached that level of research to answer such questions definitely.
Ysv one more question for you,though not related to this post exactly. It seems that the prices of onion and vegetables are rising ,in some places of india it has touched 100 rupees a kg,while in our area its going 90+. Has it something to do with the recent amendments of agri bill? And will the agri bill be good for india in long run,given that ours is a complex societal system,not exactly linear like USA or western nations where free market could be ushered in with relative ease?
I do not doubt the Parsee current contribution to Indian society and economy. Their charitable donations per capita dwarf everyone else. Apart from their industry and entrepreurial skills will provide employment for 10s of millions. Tatas Air India was a model for luxury airlines across the world including Singapore and later Emirates Airlines. JRD Tata would personally inspect the airlines and scrub them clean as example to the staff . Of course Indira Gandhi got her grubby paws on it and down the toilet it went with the rest of the economy.
DeleteMy position is that all this is a survival mechanism. This is their way of telling Hindus- please dont kill us, we apologize for selling you out. But I am sure when the next unholy corporate military nexus takes over India by stealth and proxy they will be first in line offering their services. Yes many Hindus participated in the same but there are many others who fought the imperial powers against overwhelming odds. Even those who sided with the British such as the Mahars against the Peshwas had justifiable reasons. Same with the Anglican Nadars who supplied English their first soldiers. These two communities were isolated from mainstream society and treated like subhumans. One can not expect unconditional patriotism from such folks .
However Parsees were treated well and had no reason to betray their host society. And neither did they have any freedom fighters worth the name.
I like Persian culture in general and their aesthetics particularly. but something about their character makes me very uncomfortable. It seems they have a purely transactional and intensely pragmatic nature. which is why they have such few revolutions despite so much oppression. The Persians blew their load so to speak in 1979 and they are done for the next few hundred years.
Maybe its my personality but for this reason I like Arabs more who are hot headed ,generous and passionate.
Whenever you some economic proposal that seeks to disrupt the status quo of some commodity market, there will always be wild price fluctuations. Initially there may a tendence towards and hoarding as well as speculations that farmers may reduce growing these crops due to reduced incentives and so the speculators pump the prices accordingly. At this stage it is too difficult to predict the long term consequences but if the government lets other sellers and buyers in and creates a truly deregulated market, then the prices may be attractive to consumers . Though in the future a company may try to create a monopoly. That is the danger and paradox of a free market.
Delete"whether endogamy or rather the cultural background of a population matters in their educational foothold,is something that would be hard to sort out. Would the orthodox jews or tamil brahmins have shown lesser intelligence levels without endogamy traits?" --- @JAM, I think it's a mix of both, and it's not like tamil brahmins haven't mixed , they have , at least in the beginning where it seems that migration was male biased and they took local wives initially but for the most part, given tamil brahmins remained stuck to their professions with continued endogamy, this might possibly create a population with more people in the right tail of the verbal IQ distribution (of course, this is a conjecture at this point).
ReplyDelete"It seems that the prices of onion and vegetables are rising ,in some places of india it has touched 100 rupees a kg,while in our area its going 90+" ---- Now this might sound like a conspiracy theory but a certain Mr. X told me this - Mr X. got a call from Mr. Y (Mr Y is from maharashtra) some 20 days ago that prices of onions are going to go drastically due to some folks stocking it up. The claim is that this is to influence the current elections in bihar 😁.
Tamil Brahmins were present in TN since the Sangam era if not earlier. They may have been later additions to the Brahmin gene pool such as Vadama who came from the Godavari Narmada region and from Ramanuja pulling a Parasurama made Iyengar Brahmins out of odds and ends of various castes.
ReplyDeleteIt has to be mentioned while cousin marriages and uncle niece are far more common in the south , they are not always the norm. My own parents are not related in anyway and neither are my paternal and maternal grandparents . Though in the extended family we do have these pairings.
Regarding IQ, I dont know if there has been any research done regarding endogamy and IQ. I think there is a more complex story here.
For instance, it is not Orthodox Jews who are known for intellectual achievements but more mainstream and secular Jews and they often marry non Jews. At one point in the U.S a blond blue eyed Jew was a curiosity, not anymore.
Similarly really orthodox Brahmins such as Namboothiris have no representation in the academic discipliens at all . Neither do SL Tamil Brahmins who are temple priests. All the stalwarts of SL Tamils are vellala and they are not lagging behind TN Brahmins in their achievements especially in UK, Germany and Canada where they are concentrated.
IN AP and Telangana, Niyogis are over represented in academic disciplines but not so much Vaidiki. I have met some Vaidiki Brahmins and they are simply not too bright. Same goes for Orthodox Jews whose intellectual curiosity for a world outside Judaism is usually non existent.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/cousin-marriage-can-reduce-iq-a-lot
DeleteHere is a finding by Razib Khan, but the sample is north Indian Muslims in UP. Not Tamil or telugu Brahmins. So this mystery remains unresolved here.
Here is something more illustrative
Deletehttps://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf
This paper elaborates the hypothesis that the unique demography and sociology of
Ashkenazim in medieval Europe selected for intelligence. Ashkenazi literacy, economic
specialization, and closure to inward gene flow led to a social environment in which there
was high fitness payoff to intelligence, specifically verbal and mathematical intelligence
but not spatial ability. As with any regime of strong directional selection on a quantitative
trait, genetic variants that were otherwise fitness reducing rose in frequency. In particular
we propose that the well-known clusters of Ashkenazi genetic diseases, the sphingolipid
cluster and the DNA repair cluster in particular, increase intelligence in heterozygotes.
Other Ashkenazi disorders are known to increase intelligence. Although these disorders
have been attributed to a bottleneck in Ashkenazi history and consequent genetic drift,
there is no evidence of any bottleneck. Gene frequencies at a large number of autosomal
loci show that if there was a bottleneck then subsequent gene flow from Europeans must
have been very large, obliterating the effects of any bottleneck. The clustering of the
disorders in only a few pathways and the presence at elevated frequency of more than one
deleterious allele at many of them could not have been produced by drift. Instead these
are signatures of strong and recent natural selection
on the Parsees
Since strong selection for IQ seems to be unusual in humans (few populations have had
most members performing high-complexity jobs) and since near-total reproductive
isolation is also unusual, the Ashkenazim may be the only extant human population with
polymorphic frequencies of IQ-boosting disease mutations, although another place to
look for a similar phenomenon is in India. In particular the Parsi are an endogamous
group with high levels of economic achievement, a history of long distance trading,
business, and management, and who suffer high prevalences of Parkinson disease, breast
cancer, and tremor disorders, diseases not present in their neighbors (see “The UNESCO
Parsi Zoroastrian Project”, http://www.unescoparzor.com)
..........
I think the takeaway here is that endogamy doesnt adversely affect IQ across generations as long as the partners are both high IQ and the offspring pursue academic achievement and similarly suited partners. The tradeoff is various health disorders such as higher rates of Parkinsons, cancer , reduced general fitness etc.
"It has to be mentioned while cousin marriages and uncle niece are far more common in the south , they are not always the norm." ---- They are not the norm among south india brahmins. I was actually shocked to find that this cross-cousin marriages has made its way amomg south indian brahmins.
DeleteBtw, it's not just endogamy but endogamy among literary elites which would make a difference and there's a a middle ground in the sense that one shouldn't marry too close. Even the shastras mention leaving 7 generations on the father's side and 4 generations on the mother's side between bride abd groom.
The muslim thing is of parallel-cousin afaik.
Even the shastras mention leaving 7 generations on the father's side and 4 generations on the mother's side between bride abd groom.
DeleteThe Vedic era law giver Baudhayana made an exception for people of Dakshinapatha. He stated that unlike north Indians, south Indian are allowed to marry their cousins.
This was probably done as a compromise to south Indians so that they would accept the mainstream Vedic religion of the era.
It is similar to how Christians in Europe did not interfere too much in the customs and traditions of Germans, Celtic and Italic peoples so they would accept even a superficial overlay of Christianity.
YSV &others
DeleteI am not much aware of this subject,but I think the demarcation is not exactly about north or south ,but more about certain cultural population groups preferring to keep marriages within known alliances .I mean to say that such population groups have existed both in north and south,though I am not sure about frequency or numerical density of cousin marriages,but atleast in north central india this thing has been a norm,and not just in muslims but Jats,gujjars and such hindu populations as well. Strangely this current generation of north india doesnt seem to be showing that much of an inclination towards cousin marriages,atleast its not being taken to be a mainstream or common factor,whereas I think its still considered to be normal in parts of south even in this generation.But my observations are purely based on anecdotal perceptions of mine in interactions with friends from north and south,thus it need not be taken seriously :D
Back In those days it was also kind of an economic decision,like land property staying within one single dynasty,particularly this thing governed the north central indian family marriages or endogamy.
Quite contrary to the north indian norms of past,bengali society has always avoided cousin marriages,infact in bengal even same gotra marriages are considered a big NO if one is going for an arranged marriage. That principle of avoiding even one's own gotra itself probably had a role in never bringing remote chances of general endogamy within bengal population.
North east india may also be an interesting case study for all sociological POVs,their societies have mixed up many different strands of culture,chinese,burmese,indian,tibetan and so on :)
Tim
Deletewhether endogamy or rather the cultural background of a population matters in their educational foothold,is something that would be hard to sort out. Would the orthodox jews or tamil brahmins have shown lesser intelligence levels without endogamy traits?" --- @JAM, I think it's a mix of both, and it's not like tamil brahmins haven't mixed , they have , at least in the beginning where it seems that migration was male biased and they took local wives initially but for the most part, given tamil brahmins remained stuck to their professions with continued endogamy, this might possibly create a population with more people in the right tail of the verbal IQ distribution (of course, this is a conjecture at this point).
"It seems that the prices of onion and vegetables are rising ,in some places of india it has touched 100 rupees a kg,while in our area its going 90+" ---- Now this might sound like a conspiracy theory but a certain Mr. X told me this - Mr X. got a call from Mr. Y (Mr Y is from maharashtra) some 20 days ago that prices of onions are going to go drastically due to some folks stocking it up. The claim is that this is to influence the current elections in bihar 😁. -----------------
Actually this was the only apprehension I had shared in a whatsapp discussion group about the farm bill,that it would increase the probability of hoarders and foreign sellers,increasing domestic prices. The farm bill no doubt is an ambitious project,but the govt of india hasnt yet caught up with the associated infra expansion as per its own
"I am not sure about frequency or numerical density of cousin marriages,but atleast in north central india this thing has been a norm,and not just in muslims but Jats,gujjars and such hindu populations as well. " ----
ReplyDelete@JAM, please DON'T BULLSHIT and spread misinformation when you don't have the information, jats and gujars don't even marry within the their own villages, in fact rural Jats don't even marry within the gotra of their grandparents.
Hell, rural Jats still honor kill if groom marries within the same gotra as the bride.
I challenge you to provide a source/evidence for this claim of this practice being a norm in north and north-west india. It may exist in parts of gujarat where like dravidians abd sindhis, people do cross-cousin marriages but north of it, it doesn't.
Some *Muslim* jats and gujjars may do it but hindu and sikh ones don't.
"Strangely this current generation of north india doesnt seem to be showing that much of an inclination towards cousin marriages," ---- They never did , may be some extreme scenarios but in the general case NO.
"Quite contrary to the north indian norms of past,bengali society has always avoided cousin marriages,infact in bengal even same gotra marriages are considered a big NO " ---- So did north indian especially north-western indian society. Haven't you ever heard of khap panchayats ruling against same gotra marriages or honor kiling done in same gotra ? https://wap.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/oppose-same-gotra-marriage-never-for-honour-killing-up-khaps-113011200379_1.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manoj–Babli_honour_killing_case
From the above
" The Khap panchayat's ruling was based on the assumption that Manoj and Babli belonged to the Banwala gotra, a Jat community, and were therefore considered to be siblings despite not being directly related and any union between them would be invalid and incestuous. "
Lol, i wonder why if this were the norm in north india and since rural practices don't change fast, i wonder why this honor killing happened.
Tim
DeleteOk I stand corrected ,kindly forgive me for wrong assumptions on jats and gujjars _/\_
Tim, calm down. I have no idea why that triggers you so much. Issuing an erroneous in passing is different from knowingly spreading misinformation .
DeleteWhat is it about this topic that you are so invested in?
YSV
DeleteTHanks a lot sir for your kind intervention _/\_ Even a cursory read of my comment would make it clear that spreading misinfo was not my objective. And infact in my zeal,i have made an erroneous observation on bengal as well,my home state. the data link given by Tim shows that even in bengal,around 5% of all marriages as per 1992 data were consanguineous,though my perception was that it should have been less than 1% or so. And my intention was just to share the idea that Clan endogamy was a thing in both north and south,maybe the frequency was higher in south. But it was not nonexistent or nearly as nonexistent as we perceive, in northern india either,including bengal,even if on a lesser percentage as compared to south. The percentage differential is not highly stark or contrasting either,for UP and bengal ,its 7.5% and 5% respectively,compared to 24% for Karnataka or TN ,I cant recall(its given in the link tim shared on study of consanguineous marriages). What surprised me was that even bengal shares a non-negligible percentage of such marriages,contrary to my own understanding and observation.
Thats all I have to say on this topic. I withdraw my erroneous perceptions on Jats and gujjars,derived from my colleague friends who live in western UP and my casual discussions with them.
Having said that,personally I don have any judgements in favour or against any form of social setup wrt marriage alliances,societies have evolved through countless cultural and economic trials and tribulations,thus for some strands of cultural population groups,consanguineous marriage probably had been kind of an authentic decision for them back in those days of history.
DeleteBad sleep, arguments with someone else elsewhere, some kind of innate dislike for the practice plus me reading JAM's comment in a different tone in my mind made me write like that. @JAM, brother, i apologize if i came off a bit hard.
Delete"the data link given by Tim shows that even in bengal,around 5% of all marriages as per 1992 data were consanguineous,though my perception was that it should have been less than 1% or so." ---- You are forgetting a significant % of muslims who live in bengal and UP. UP muslims do practise cousin marriage at a higher rate, i believe it was bayly who wrote that in muslim dominated areas of UP, some poor hindu castes(whose counterparts in different region didn't have the practice) started this practise too.
"I withdraw my erroneous perceptions on Jats and gujjars,derived from my colleague friends who live in western UP and my casual discussions with them." --- If such marriages were indeed taking place in that region, i wonder why the khaps didn't outcaste them . I mean these guys literally honor kill even for same gotra marriages lol. If jats of some parts of west UP indeed have this practise then muslim influence is the only thing that comes to my mind.
Tim
DeleteBad sleep, arguments with someone else elsewhere, some kind of innate dislike for the practice plus me reading JAM's comment in a different tone in my mind made me write like that. @JAM, brother, i apologize if i came off a bit hard.
"the data link given by Tim shows that even in bengal,around 5% of all marriages as per 1992 data were consanguineous,though my perception was that it should have been less than 1% or so." ---- You are forgetting a significant % of muslims who live in bengal and UP. UP muslims do practise cousin marriage at a higher rate, i believe it was bayly who wrote that in muslim dominated areas of UP, some poor hindu castes(whose counterparts in different region didn't have the practice) started this practise too.
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I completely understand bhai,that u were not in a good mood for some reason,and its absolutely human to not be in good frame of mind all the time,I myself often have vented anger and frustration in the past on others,so I am equally guilty of it,there's nothing for which u need to apologize :) _/\_ After all we do have our own emotional affiliations towards certain topics,either as affinity or hatred whatever. And to be fair,u were right in ur angst against me,but my intention was just to share the experiences of some casual chats i had with two colleague friends from UP,one of them lives in Ayodhya proper,and another one somewhere in Noida region or West UP,I cant recall exactly. Back in my job training in Mysore,we used to discuss everything under the sun all night through ,we discussed on comparative cultural aspects and so on. What i recall is that both of them shared their dislike for haryanvi population in this clan marriage thing or closed family marriages. But as u pointed out,data is not pointing out the same,rather its quite opposite the case,Jats actually hate Clan endogamy.though again Jats dont make whole of Haryana population,theres a significant nonJat population as well I think,but overall u are right here more than I am,as u are speaking on data set and I spoke on vague perception. Anyway so much for it,I am personally not connected deeply with this topic to bother about Jats or bengalis or Marathis marrying within or outside clans :D
Your are right in ur second observation as well, I overlooked the significant muslim population of bengal and UP,i lost the perspective here,actually I was thinking more about Indian population and not along the religious lines of separation ,thus I missed out the core of ur discussions with YSV.
"I withdraw my erroneous perceptions on Jats and gujjars,derived from my colleague friends who live in western UP and my casual discussions with them." --- If such marriages were indeed taking place in that region, i wonder why the khaps didn't outcaste them . I mean these guys literally honor kill even for same gotra marriages lol. If jats of some parts of west UP indeed have this practise then muslim influence is the only thing that comes to my mind. ---- agreed fully bro _/\_
"If such marriages were indeed taking place in that region, i wonder why the khaps didn't outcaste them . I mean these guys literally honor kill even for same gotra marriages lol. If jats of some parts of west UP indeed have this practise then muslim influence is the only thing that comes to my mind."
DeletePerhaps consider the role of female infanticide which leads to a skewed sex ratio in these communities. It is possible that they simply have no choice but to marry a cousin because there is stiff competition for the outgotra brides.
I dont like these practices in my community but here we are. Unless there is a concerted effort by media, politicians , popular culture, religious figures, social workers, medical professionals et al, this is not going to change. The first step to solving a problem is figuring out that you have a problem.
Delete"Haryana population,theres a significant nonJat population as well" --- Yes , but jats would be around ~25% of the haryana's population and dont forget JAM that they are the most dominant group in haryana and practices of the dominants often get adopted by the others.
DeleteAs @YSV said, if this practice indeed exists among West UP jats then shortage of females might be another reason but to this , one could say that jats make up for the deficiency by marrying other states women like bihari, himachali and in the extreme case even bengali brides.
Anyways, i have wrote enough about this and i won't talk abt it again.
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@YSV, what's the origin of rajputs of north india ? There aee various theories like them being the descendants of ancient kshatriya clans to some huns getting accepted in the kshatrita fold. I am not sure if the Hun theory has any significant weight based on genetic studies of few rajput samples of north . YSV, could you shed light on this ?
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@JAM, do the basaks of bengal have tanti(weaver) origins ?
I heard that Jats from Haryana and Punjab considered brides from Kerala and Bengal as these states have an excess of females. But they found Malayalee and Bengali women too headstrong for their tastes lol and hence they dropped that approach.
DeleteI used to believe that Colonel Todd and colonialist propaganda that Huns and Scythians were the forerunners of Rajputs. But it turns out to colonialist bias (they could not accept that groups with pure Indian blood could be effective warriors). Since the death of Harshavardhana, there were no major clans of solar or lunar background in north India who were acceptable to Brahamans to create an empire. Also keep in consideration that gradual shift of power to fertile regions to drier, arid regions due to the prevalence of marginal groups who pursued more of a cavalry centric warfare which was far more effective.
Hence Gujjars, Chalukya, Rashtrakutas, remnants of Hun kingdoms as well as tribals such as Chandellas all contributed to the Rajput gene pool. The poorbiyas such the Koeris and Yadavs who were behind the Mauryas and Palas less so. The origin of Guptas is muddled.
The very term Rajput is reminiscent of thambi- it means son of king or at best little king. ie. they are not real kings but playing pretend. This was probably thrown about by the heirs of Guptas and Harshavardhana but it caught on somehow.
I think only Agnikula Rajputs were created from Foreigners such as Huns, scythians, perhaps even Muslim adventurers.
Tim
DeleteAgreed with all Ur observations on Haryana jats , consanguinity etc ,as u have established proper factual base. I have already moved on from that topic anyway,it doesn't interest me anymore :D
A group of basaks in Bengal have been traditional waivers . But not all of them were so . Actually if u see and live through Bengali society ,u will find caste lines have completely blurred,the upper castes and brahmins no more care , I belong to a brahmin family of Bengal ,most of my cousins have gone for love marriage and from nonbrahmin castes,even what u call scheduled castes as well. The society has moved on from such differences ,thus maybe basaks had at one point of time dominated a particular economic activity,but due to intermingling of castes through marital alliances ,these things have blurred out. Professions are generally not defined by caste consciousness any more . For example I got to know that once upon a time the scheduled Tribe community of Patuas were superb artists specialising in earthen pottery . Some of these Patuas have honed their dynastic skills to become good artists ,like one person named kalam patua,who is also a colleague of mine and an international artist in postmodern art (u will get his drawings and details in Google search ) . He comes from this patua community . But apart from him ,I rarely see the Patuas of birbhum district engaged in their traditional work anymore ,most of them send their kids to schools and aspire to get educated and established in metro cities rather . I guess the govt of Bengal could not support or encourage their traditional skills in pottery . Anyway most of the Bengali population no more live or associate with caste identity , either socially or economically . Only a few lower castes from sc and st, like the barga Kshatriyas (or bagdis as they are called,they were fierce warriors and fought against Muslim invaders with great courage ) still heavily take pride in their social identity,and they generally encourage marital relationships within their caste groups . Same for the adivasis of Bengal ,they won't even take a Bengali brahmin girl as bride ,they are very rigid about their societal identity . But it ends only there,ie, only with marital alliances and only in a few SC or ST groups . The non sc,non st Bengali population rarely cares anymore on caste lines . That is why I don't even know which title belongs to which caste in Bengal ,except a few well-known brahmin and ST titles . And even if I get to know ,I don't bother,because our society doesn't bother either about caste identification on social interactions. This thing doesn't hold much importance in Bengal ,atleast not enough to make u uncomfortable or awkward over Ur caste identity ,brahmin or st whatever .
The first time in my life I was made conscious of being a brahmin was when in my job training ,a haryana jat colleague of mine didn't want me to serve him food ,saying that I am a brahmin thus shouldn't serve him ,it will add to his bad karma :( I don't even know which are the brahmin titles of Haryana,because that doesn't matter in our society ,but this jat friend of mine apparently keeps a track of even bengali brahmin titles . That is the first time I got respected for something as frivolous and trivial as a birth title ,though I hate to see this thing.
"Since the death of Harshavardhana, there were no major clans of solar or lunar background in north India who were acceptable to Brahamans to create an empire. " --- Harshvardhana's clan Bais still lives to this day in the bainswara region of UP.
Delete"Chandellas all contributed to the Rajput gene pool. " --- Very interesting that chandels may be have tribal origins,aren't they supposed to be chandravanshi ? Anyways, It reminds me of what a gond person once told me online, he told me that Chandel is a totem among gonds and it means rabbit in their language.
"
The poorbiyas such the Koeris and Yadavs who were behind the Mauryas and Palas less so" --- YSV, what's the evidence for this claim that Koeris(who have adopted Maurya title) and Gope/Gwals of Bihar(who have adopted yadav title) were behind the Mauryas and Palas dynasty ? I mean at the time of independence, most yadavs, kurmis and koeris of Bihar were tenants in the lands of brahman, bhumihars and rajput zamindars.
This is just a guess but given bhumihars' current and past dominance in magadh region of bihar and low historic social mobility(barring some exceptions), if any group has valid claim to be descendants of kings in magadh region, it would be bhumihars because we know that the "The Son also rises".
Yeah, i know about relatively weak caste consciousness in bengal from higher % of inter-caste marriages to very low % of crimes filed under SC/ST act.
Delete"Same for the adivasis of Bengal ,they won't even take a Bengali brahmin girl as bride ,they are very rigid about their societal identity " --- Very interesting, it's pathetic how our 'intellectuals' paint a picture where SCs and STs are always vying to get married to higher castes especially brahmins but it's not the case especially with STs. This has been my personal observation too that a lot of tribals are very rigid about their ethnic identity.
",a haryana jat colleague of mine didn't want me to serve him food ,saying that I am a brahmin thus shouldn't serve him ,it will add to his bad karma " --- lol WTF
Tim
DeleteYeah, i know about relatively weak caste consciousness in bengal from higher % of inter-caste marriages to very low % of crimes filed under SC/ST act. ---- whatever little cases are filed under st act ,it's plain misuse of the act ,because no one in Bengali society cares at all for caste or tribe identity while misbehaving or discriminating with another person ,the misbehaviour or discrimination stems from other issues but never from caste consciousness,but ofcourse STs would use the act to their benefit and thus file false complaints ,like 498 used by women against in-laws . Even that proportion is very very low ,even our STs never care about using the provisions of ST act ,as they are not mistreated by anyone based on their caste or tribal identity ,they may get mistreated for other reasons that are not related to caste. Infact most of us bengalis respect this Bengali speaking adivasi community (though their mother languageb is not bengali,but they have generally adapted Bengali as main language ) ,they are humble and hard working people ,and ruthlessly honest in their dealings. Also they are very hygenic. I love the adivasis :) even in Karnataka I had lived for a few days in the tribal belt of kenchenally ,their is a org named swami Vivekananda foundation that is working for their upliftment with education and healthcare . I guess adivasis all over India share this same fundamental trait.
One effect of the low caste consciousness is that even xtian conversions are pretty low in Bengal ,except for orphaned children adopted by xtian orgs ,there's very little Bengali to xtian conversion ,almost negligible. Infact to be honest ,I would love to have a few more of Bengali xtians and few lesser of Bengali Muslims rather :D most xtians living in Bengal have roots from Jharkhand or Bihar tribal belts ,and in our town there is a good number of South Indian xtians ,we have lived happily without a single religious difference for multiple generations now. Our town basilica(bandel church) is one of the oldest in India ,I think 3rd or 4th oldest ,built during reign of jahangir or shahjahan I can't recall. But even after a long presence in our society ,these churches could not convert any significant number of Bengali population in post independence era,because one fundamental plank of caste consciousness is nearly nonexistent here . Even the native adivasis of Bengal largely rejected church offers. But nowadays I am getting to hear a new term called crypto xtian ,don't know what exactly that means :D
Btw that jat pal had become a great friend of mine later on :)
Jats have niyoga while not incest in the physical sense is still psychologically. They often are obligated to marry the wife of their deceased brother. "bhabhi devar" relationship is proverbial for brother sister or mother son proxy depending on age difference.
DeleteHence to many other Hindus , the fact that these marriages occur with Jats is shocking. I think Pushtuns have it too.
Ysv
DeleteJats have niyoga while not incest in the physical sense is still psychologically. They often are obligated to marry the wife of their deceased brother. "bhabhi devar" relationship is proverbial for brother sister or mother son proxy depending on age difference.
Hence to many other Hindus , the fact that these marriages occur with Jats is shocking. I think Pushtuns have it too. -----
This is the exact premise which my friends from Western up quoted wrt Haryana society . I guess this thing creates the wrong impression in many non jat Hindus that incest+consanguinity would be more common amongst jats,which has been proven to be false by Tim with the data he shared. Even I had this wrong perception about Haryana (not just jats ) being open to consanguinity stemming from this idea . It's not just in jats or Haryana,I think even biharis have this ,though I am not sure of the extent and relative percentage of such marriages.
"Jats have niyoga while not incest in the physical sense is still psychologically. They often are obligated to marry the wife of their deceased brother" --- @JAM, aah, so your haryanvi friend was talking abt this, well technicaly it's not consanguinity and incest but in practice, a weird one nonetheless. I don't know the origin of this practice but the fact the pashtuns have majes me wonder if other north-western biradaries have it too !
DeleteIt's funny how some people from that area blane brahnins, arya samaj and hinduism for such marriage practises lol.
Speaking of haryana, well haryana govt passed a bill reserving 75% of seats in posts having salary upto 50,000 Rs for domiciles of haryana in private companies.
Tim
DeleteWith ysv coincidentally pointing out the issue of remarriage of widowed women into same family,I accidentally recalled that this thing highly contributes to perception of incest
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteparticularly this thing governed the north central indian family marriages or endogamy." ---
ReplyDelete@JAM, could you specify which contemporary region you mean when you say 'north central' india ? Is it present day Madhya pradesh where jats and gujjars would be barely 2%-3% of the state's population ?
Anyways, below is a paper which documents the rate of consanguineous marriages in various states in 1992-1993(close to 30 years ago or roughly 1 generation ago from now) . Do see the numbers
https://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltext/jgen/081/03/0091-0098
ReplyDelete"- Very interesting that chandels may be have tribal origins,aren't they supposed to be chandravanshi ? "
I think chandravamshi status was the easiest access for pastoral groups into mainstream Hindu respectability. Suryavamshi was more strict for whatever reason. You may consider chandravanshi equilvant of regional colleges and suryavamshi as IITs lol. Perhaps Agnikula and Nagavamsha are those who opt to study abroad. Ok enough of my dad jokes
The Chandella area is Gond territory. Gond leaders could have been given Rajput status by some Brahmins who were evicted from the kakatiya kingdom - a speculation as The latter were treated rather roughly when especially when they fell on the wrong side of court intrigues. There is an inscription where two Brahmin diplomats were decapitated and their heads used as a football of sorts in a game by victorious nobles.
"Perhaps Agnikula and Nagavamsha are those who opt to study abroad." --
Delete(i) Good that you brought up Nagavansha, why do you think they are from abroad lol ? In fact, they might be as indian as it gets, some royals in jharkhand, chattisgarh and MP claimed nagavanshi lineage. The Naga/cobra worship thing is not present in west asia, central asia etc. since there are no cobras there lol.
(ii) Please look up my question on koeris and yadavs in one of my comment above.
i) Strained analogy . Dont take it too seriously hahaa. Naga tribes and clans were apparently all over India. They were probably an independent group from IA or Dravidians. Maravars as per Sangam texts were considered Nagas and outside Tamil society. But they got assimilated as did the Nairs and Bunts. But the latter is speculation. Keralopathi notes that Kadambas invited warriors and priests from Ahichatra (todays UTtarakhand) to populated Konkan and Kerala and hence the origin of Nairs and Bants. But that text is rather dubious and self contradictory. Some Nair websites even ascribe their polyandry and their unique style of temple construction to Nepal.
DeleteWhatever the case there seems to be a great deal of cross pollination between various Himalayan regions and the Southwestern belt. To this day priests from Udupi are recruited for service in Pasupatinath temple in Nepal. WHile Nambuthiri priests have exclusive domain over Badrinath.
Scythians also worshipped snakes. As well as Middle Eastern civilizations such as Sumer. THe Biblical distaste for snakes is not just a primal reaction common to all mammals (domesticated tigers, lions and other big cats who never encountered a snake instinctively fear rubber hoses as they resemble these reptiles) but also a relic of pre Hebraic religions which were always tempting Hebrews away from Yahweh. Hence the snake offering forbidden knowledge.
ii) I realize many picked up the Yadav title over the last 100 years. But generally pastoral groups were often related when in the same region. I think I read in this Bindeshwari Prasad Sinhas very good book on Indian mythology and history. She/He(?) covers many Bihari and Bengali sub cultures which are found in tantric texts and Puranas.Koeris/Kurmis are considered agrarians with a warrior background. The Buddhists consider the Nandas and Mauryas as Kshatriyas but other legends state that they had humble backgrounds.
Ysv&Tim
DeleteScythians also worshipped snakes. As well as Middle Eastern civilizations such as Sumer. THe Biblical distaste for snakes is not just a primal reaction common to all mammals (domesticated tigers, lions and other big cats who never encountered a snake instinctively fear rubber hoses as they resemble these reptiles) but also a relic of pre Hebraic religions which were always tempting Hebrews away from Yahweh. Hence the snake offering forbidden knowledge. ------- taking the snake as a symbol of occultism ,mysticism and kind of higher awakening seems to be distinct practice as compared to certain other parts of the globe going by the more biological aversion of mammals for snakes. The glorification of snake totem seems to have been a part of ancient eastern India ,north east India and even into China as seen in their Taoist lineages. Again this same glorification or ascription of higher value to snake totem can be seen in ancient Africa ,not just Egypt but even bushmen and such other groups. I guess ,the preabrahamic and abrahamic tradition in contrast takes the snake exactly as biochemical or neural response of human beings work. The snake for them needs to be feared and abhorred,thus their religious totems revolve around this ideation . However in case of those ancient spiritual attempts that tried to worship or affix higher value or awakening aspiration to the snake totem ,I think even in their case the root idea was not so much about the physical serpent as it had been about the mystic coiled energy or consciousness theories ,for which they found the snake to be an ideal representative. Over time these philosophical links eroded as it happens anyway in case of all philosophies ,and only the physical worship of snake remained on .
ReplyDeletehttp://www.phayul.com/2020/09/14/44410/
Khalistan Zindabad declared 1986 AD April
Tibet was never chinmky
Retarded 60 inch midget of maccadona (alecs)ruined Tibetan genetix by relocating chinEe tscandal to Tibet . Nasty - enjoy the isis golem Type migrants greeki wogzog ur decrepit pseudo church owns 2nd most land at semiteIsrael - these semites hindjew have no place on Anglosphere or subcontinent/
Whereas Panth is at Anglosphere by invitation of founder of Scotsman founder of Anglosphere 1 July 1867 AD
Wretched existence in perpetuity for enemies of Afghanistan.
Loy Afghanistan
Khalistan Zindabad
Jeevai jeevai Pakistan home aumsweethome to penultimate Himalya peak K2.
Call her Sagarmath not “everest “.
Grease koine language is concoction of various war criminals who can’t even benefit from education such is their imbecility.
Turk has wrong book- it’s Onkar not Ankara,
Lemuria Atlantis extincted
Egypt extinct
Rome greece extincted
Persianate India ~ immortal .
Two languages of Khalistan- 1GurmukhiPanjabi and 2Chaste Persian amongst the finest most euphonious languages . Mother languages of 1st & 10 th final SatGuru of Panth .
Stop trying to ruin Kashmir- u zogwog criminality deserve trip to den Haag .
Collective punishment is illegal as is torture - Geneva conventions governing lawful warfare .
Pashtunization is the only solution frankly .
I reiterate- Tibet was never chinki- Tibet was purest AryaSaka caucasian.
Damm wogzog of greek*maccadona they all look the same lacking translucency of skin - Thick opaque olive skin that stinks from nonveg Admittedly born sinners of Xtianity.
Pamiristan pink cheeks r rare gift of Sri Lakshmi Paramatman- u foul criminals abandon vegetaryan ethic abroad and on the subcontinent- u all stink from afar as noted by meneka ji Essay. Neocolonialistic looters deserve perpetual penury
.
I think this should be Exhibit A when the prosecution wishes to commit Prabh to an "institution".
DeleteDoes Prabhnoor Rangi know that Sikhs eat considerable amounts of meat and especially beef?
DeleteThat aside, I have a query: Pork is forbidden for Muslims. Do Sikhs eat pork?
Also, have you eaten beef and pork before?
Delete"Does Prabhnoor Rangi know that Sikhs eat considerable amounts of meat and especially beef?"
Sikhs eat neither beef nor pork as the religion is a mishmash of Hinduism and Islamic customs.
Punjab is one of the most vegetarian states in India today. Sikh vegetarians are not unknown though Hindus are more likely to be vegetarian
I try to minimize intake of red meat.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Delete@Prahb108
DeleteWhy do you keep posting here you lunatic? Didnt you vow to leave us Lemurian Madrasis and spend time with your apple cheeked buddies from Kazakhstan or what have you.
I cannot read anymore of your rubbish. They have a date with the delete button.
Ysv
Delete@Prahb108
Why do you keep posting here you lunatic? Didnt you vow to leave us Lemurian Madrasis and spend time with your apple cheeked buddies from Kazakhstan or what have you.
I cannot read anymore of your rubbish. They have a date with the delete button. -------.
Worst of all ,he seems to be writing through Google translate. For that matter ,even Google translate is better at expressing than whatever he writes . Wonder what fun such people get by writing crash fantasy stuff of their Dreamland propaganda on completely unrelated blogs and platforms. With such elucidation handicap ,with prabh100 be ever able to change anyone's views towards khalistani agenda ? His Muslim counterparts from Pakistan like jahan soz are far better ,atleast they come well dressed as Hindus and try to spread caste and ethnic hatred in a decent way so as to convince someone. Prabh100000 needs some schooling from his pashtun masters .
There is a racial and ethnic supremacist overtone to Khalistan and Sikh supremacism. Many of them believe they are descendents of Saka warriors and intrinsically superior to Hindus. They believe Sikhism is somehow a fusion of Saka Aryan religion. Notice how he dismissed outright the reality -that Sikhism is a hodgepodge of Hindu and Islamic beliefs. Its there in their terminology, dress, grooming(Beards and turbans are more Iranian than Hindu) style of architecture etc.
Deleteto this he adds his own vegetarian agenda and borrows some anti Zionist rhetoric from our beloved captain to make his own unholy ideology.
The question I have is - why do these weirdos keep coming here?
" His Muslim counterparts from Pakistan like jahan soz are far better ,atleast they come well dressed as Hindus and try to spread caste and ethnic hatred in a decent way so as to convince someone. Prabh100000 needs some schooling from his pashtun masters ."
I suspect that Rajput apologist who was thrashing Marathas is also Paki impostor. He got frustrated and left when I refused to throw out the baby with the bathwater- even as I am more critical of Marathas than the average nationalist I dont dismiss their incredible military effectiveness , neither the vision and nobility of many individual leaders.
"Persianate India ~ immortal .
DeleteTwo languages of Khalistan- 1GurmukhiPanjabi and 2Chaste Persian amongst the finest most euphonious languages . Mother languages of 1st & 10 th final SatGuru of Panth .
Stop trying to ruin Kashmir- u zogwog criminality deserve trip to den Haag .
Collective punishment is illegal as is torture - Geneva conventions governing lawful warfare .
Pashtunization is the only solution frankly ."
As you can see from this gibberish, he wishes Sikhs to align themselves with whiter races such as Persians, Kashmiris, Pushtuns etc. And spews contempt on mainstream Hindus from the plains and the south. This is perhaps another weirdo with complexes.
I avoid cinema but this is my utube comment against insectoid- crazy rich asian substandard cinema - an exclusionary film if ever there were one .
Delete“Dirty insectoid offspring make mess- lick up the slushy earth u chinkchild
Hands off beovulf lingo nonindoeuropean. “
https://www.amren.com/news/2020/11/chinas-five-year-plan-proposal-stresses-eugenics-in-birth-policy-says-expert/
https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/china-used-secret-microwave-pulse-weapon-against-indian-troops-border-battle
Tibet was never chinmky
Death to mongolid*china: enemy of mankind and only friend of mankind k9 and quadruped.
Violation of Geneva conventions against dharm fauji r to be avenged indra style RigVedic indra
Insectoid murdabad
China fated to break into 4 pieces like a dirty dish plate - no effin inshallah either or so more it be
It’s a done deal .
Never again i communicate with any insectoid - never
By the way pak home aumsweethome to Himalya peak k2– is gonna have pleasure of insectoid extinction at some point on time space transmutation continuum of life eternal.
Thanks for k~ corridor Niazi💐
Save GopiEyes legendary subset of fabled Afghana eyes.
So called Great Wall of China was built by Serbian to keep insectoid off Eurasian landmass- fail army u ne’er do well Balkan Baloch ..males
Learn to recognize whom is enemy for we have no friend thanks to jewmerica lebantine filth .
Elst proves correct . Bearded Belgian tamashbeenNeanderthal. An almost hazbin
Insectoid eugenics: less said the better.
•Geneva conventions violated by insectoid • den Haag beckons
Don’t inject racial issue where none exist .
ASI is simple proto caucasian.
Dna testing using nefarious mlecch mormon polygamy lines is to make extinct last vestiges of AryaSaka khoon disease free- for the record mormon stink from afar . Osho say mormon plagiarized from india everything of esoteric worth .
Hindoo lemurid racialize all issues when the trouble is is ideological .
Ancient AryaSaka of Aryavartasthan is not angrez wogzog.
Bengal is dense tropical swamp- sucks to be you.
Vermin hostile to AfPakHind must be catapulted off the Milky Way galaxy.
Dudh amb khand milk& mango forever though I prefer peaches and love wintertime cause Persianate new year is at springtime unlike baniey swindlers .
Hello fool. First of all Sakas are considered mlecchas and barbaric. Your beloved northwestern areas are considered unsuitable for civilized peoples in the Puranic era as even early Vedic mandalas were increasingly set in Haryana and further south in Saraswati regions.
DeleteBrahmavarta and Aryavarta had little to do with Saka areas. Gujarat was considered impure and barbaric due to centuries of Saka rule. Sakas tried their best to placate Brahmins by becoming Hindus and issuing inscriptions in sanskrit in stone which horrified them even more.
It took some fraud hired by Sakas to concoct some nonsense such as Manusmriti to considered you even fallen Kshatriyas. Chadra gupta and Vikramaditya Gupta hated Sakas and wished to eliminate them from the earth. In this they were successful but their successors fell to the Huns.
"Bengal is dense tropical swamp- sucks to be you.
Vermin hostile to AfPakHind must be catapulted off the Milky Way galaxy.
Dudh amb khand milk& mango forever though I prefer peaches and love wintertime cause Persianate new year is at springtime unlike baniey swindlers ."
Parasites from AfPakHind used Bengal as a source of revenue to fund their lavish lifestyle. Bengal was one of the desirable provinces in terms of tax yield due to its relative fecundity.
Persian New Year is pretty much the same as all pagan New Years dumbass. Including some hindu new years.
You have only proven that you are barbarian and a parasite. Everyone from Persians to Greeks to Hindus and other considered Sakas to be barbarians and nothing more.
Bengal created a new Hindu Renaisance in social reform, math,science, arts, literature, philosophy, religion and of course revolutionary thought and action.
DeleteAfPakHind contribution is only terorism, heroin and bachabaazi.
Also Bengal is the only province in south Asia to have access to snow clad mountains and major water body. Possibly the only area in the world to have access warm water body and an alpine climate. which is amazing in its own right.
NW Pakistan has stunningly beautiful vistas. Of course all this is wasted on your types. What a pity.
Ysv
DeleteActually prabh000000000000 is right even on swamp part ,Bengal indeed has a pretty large swamp land as well ,the mangrove lands of sunder bans ,seat of the royal Bengal tiger :) even this swamp is pretty unique that way 😀
Nowadays the climate patterns are changing ,but generally in Bengal u will get distinct features of all the 6 major seasons ,even autumn and spring have distinct features in Bengal ,ofcourse that is reducing by loss of greenery .
Pakistan's swat valley would beat Switzerland ,minus the terrorism and poverty ofcourse . However my understanding after observing many small towns and villages (as part of my job where I have to travel through rural Bengal ) is that the beauty of a place can be resurrected or maintained if u allow enough greenery to flourish .
F u phew
ReplyDeleteNon gendered bengley lingo shows you’re all hermaphroditism suffers lulz
In lay terms ur wimmin look same as ur “frail scrawny” males who reek of dead fish - machilgir skanks - as per pashtunBoy - what an uneuphonious Dialect u have at your malaria swamp - persian languages euphoniousness is nonpareil . The frightful visage of abhey de charn haunts the universes even after his late demise -
u mlech of the lemurid swamp lack occult powers and by the way ur description of jat wedlock is rife with inaccuracies. Rajesh kumar nom du Guerre of an Afpak dharm fauji accurately describes physical frailty of ur type - Viveknanda reviled good health - no wonder u have understanding of admittedly born sinners of Xtianity- like attracts like - anyway none of ur ilk will return to earth in any form inshallah- Sikhism has nothing to do with Islam or hindooizm - im lucky my mother and father language R Persian - and GurmukhiPanjabi aumsweethome plus I love sound of urdu - symposium Needed on anthropology of machilgir stinkies a liability to acquatic life on earth so comparing lemurid whose saint is described as cross dressing bengla chaitanya- no thnx - i prefer Persian first language of 10 and final master of Sikhism and my biological father language - we speak urdoo at aumsweethome and perfect GurmukhiPanjabi too. Plus a bit of French - important in panth history .
- hindoo polyandry with blackE wimmin viz kamla
Nilotic islam - polygyny
Simply vile
Sikhism wedlock similar to Swedenborg ideals of eternal wedlock love match - but within proper range - no more than 7.5 percent dreaded asi which at that percent is a nonissue- do u know how foul u appear ? From a distance ? Harming acquatic life causes lung disease .
PashtunBoy knows and he sympathizes - not with u- but with the oppressed negri insectoid blasian of JewnitedStAtes
I shan’t be back - ur bengla stan is slated to fall into the sea- get ur bengley astrologer - condemnable by Sikh And salafi spiritual standards these charlatans from hell out of Delhi Panjab before the nukes fall - ur lucky u get warning
Pamir knot mountain range is superior in terms of sheer aesthetics -. Roof of the world - u need mosquito net - can u even swim with ur uneven limbs.
I leave aside a psychiatrist to decipher this unhinged stream of consciousness.
DeleteI will just pick out one nugget of your wisdom
"Viveknanda reviled good health "
Swami vivekananda was a wrestler and mourned the loss of physical vitality among average Hindu of the era. similar to how various commentators describe the poor health of the white working class addicted to opiods in rural U.S.
He even stated that playing football lead to swarga rather than reading Vedas. Anyway all this is beyond your IQ level.
Go ahead and continue playing Borat in Pamiristan.
Ysv
Delete"Viveknanda reviled good health "
Swami vivekananda was a wrestler and mourned the loss of physical vitality among average Hindu of the era. similar to how various commentators describe the poor health of the white working class addicted to opiods in rural U.S.
He even stated that playing football lead to swarga rather than reading Vedas. Anyway all this is beyond your IQ level.
Go ahead and continue playing Borat in Pamiristan. ------- if I recall correctly ,swami Vivekananda was also the district kushti champion in his college or school years.
And there was the incident on a ship sailing to Britain or USA ,where Swamiji was travelling with two xtian priests or preachers as copassengers. They were constantly mocking India and Hinduism infront of him. As a reply to that ,he caught one one of them by collar and pushed him to the edge of deck ,threatening to throw him into water unless the mockery of Hinduism gets stopped. In the whole journey the two preachers couldn't speak a word anymore against India or her culture 😀
No one would call swami Vivekananda a Caucasian or Arya by his looks atleast,he was a general Bengali by looks,just somewhat brighter than average (even our current pm Narendra Modi ji is pretty bright in skin tone :) ) ,but that doesn't matter either , Arya looks or Caucasian skin doesn't determine quality of thought ,speech or karma. Reading the philosophy of ancient African sages,I stand amazed as to how much of Vedanta flowed in that continent in pre abrahamic era. Yet Africans are nowhere near to what we call 'aryan' by appearance.
It’s rather nefarious how lemurid and semites fuglies gravitate to shrinkilogy- thnx to indiots nobody trusts doctors- ur ilk have ruined medicine as being a noble careeer
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theglobalist.com/europes-fear-of-asia/
Montesquieu said, "They have destroyed Asia, from India even to the Mediterranean — and all the country which forms the east of Persia they have rendered a desert." Montesquieu glorified the tribal origins of Europeans as the harbingers of democracy, while he condemned the tribal people of Asia.
Hopefully humble i shan’t return to this old age glorifying blog - jawani Zindabad
Someone got himself in thesaurus in a pathetic attempt to convince people he has functioning brain cells.
DeleteSo if Montesquieu had obvious biases does it undermine his argument against nomadic groups such as Scythians, Huns and Mongols?
This is the type of piss poor argumentation that I have come to expect from you
"Hopefully humble i shan’t return to this old age glorifying blog - jawani Zindabad"
I dont know when I glorified old age -whatever that means. Jawani of course zindabad. But please dont use this as an excuse to indulge in bacha baazi as is your habit. Thank you
Ysv
DeleteIt seems u all can decipher prabh000000 comments to a large extent ,honestly I don't get anything of what he says,except in one or two lines where by sheer mischance he manages to write coherent sentences 😀😀
More than anything else,prabh000000000 needs to take a few English courses from udemy ,then maybe he could aspire to become a better khalistan and arya-saka ass warrior .
Also prabh00000000000 is beyond repair ,but as a general observation I am saying this ,if collective pride stems from hollow things like white skin or tall Aryan looks ,it's bound to get corrupted . Look at Pakistan,Zimbabwe and a host of such failed nations that had once banked on identity pride.
Arya Saka ass warrior strangely reminded me of his mother in some brothel in Dubai. For a second I thought you described her and burst out laughing.
DeleteSadly no amount of English classes will solve his dysfunction. Duolingo is a free alternative he could try but then again from his posts one gets the idea that he is not the learning type.
Your general observation is spot on.
Your defamations of AryaSaka AfPakHind will take u to unpleasant place - hopefully u understand simple angrezi u remnant of lurid lemuria.
ReplyDeleteLook: im a practical personage . Does your abySINnian “wife” even possess the rudimentary knowledge and wherewithal to stitch together a basic mosquito netting ?
ReplyDelete~
🌻🌞
Look: im a practical personage "
DeleteGoogle translate confirmed!hahahaha. JAM was right. I was giving you too much benefit of the doubt. In fact I think he is even too kind by ascribing your incoherence to bad translation. The reality is that you are simply an idiot. And that is being quite charitable. The more likelihood is you are a few donuts short of a dozen.
Most people cannot stitch mosquito netting as those are made in factories at very low cost. So this attempt at an insult is just bizarre and stupid.
Anyhow I think this was third time you denounced my blog and promised not to return. Not really a man of your word are you. Or do I trigger you so heavily that you have no choice but to respond?hahahahhahahaa
"Your defamations of AryaSaka AfPakHind will take u to unpleasant place"
heroin, bachabaazi ,terrorism and your women in the brothels of Dubai are your cheif "contributions" to the world. Not defamation. Just fact.
I am in a very pleasant place and anticipate an even more pleasant existence . Thank you for asking
Ysv
DeleteGoogle translate confirmed!hahahaha. JAM was right. I was giving you too much benefit of the doubt. In fact I think he is even too kind by ascribing your incoherence to bad translation. The reality is that you are simply an idiot. And that is being quite charitable. The more likelihood is you are a few donuts short of a dozen.
Most people cannot stitch mosquito netting as those are made in factories at very low cost. So this attempt at an insult is just bizarre and stupid.
Anyhow I think this was third time you denounced my blog and promised not to return. Not really a man of your word are you. Or do I trigger you so heavily that you have no choice but to respond?hahahahhahahaa
"Your defamations of AryaSaka AfPakHind will take u to unpleasant place"
heroin, bachabaazi ,terrorism and your women in the brothels of Dubai are your cheif "contributions" to the world. Not defamation. Just fact.
I am in a very pleasant place and anticipate an even more pleasant existence . Thank you for asking. ------ for sure ysv sir,no under under the old sun can match ur humour&wit,I just kept laughing reading through this comment 😀😀😀😀😀
One direct benefit of having trolls is that we get loads of cheap entertainment that could only be outshined perhaps by weeds ,if at all 😁😁 speaking of weeds,I haven't tested vadakayil blog for pretty much a long long long time now ,wonder what he is upto nowadays,unless he comes disguised as prabh000000108 :) u can never put all bets against my proposition of prabh being vadakayil ,because even vadakayil shares an admiration for pashtun and saka appearance at the very least 😄
Mirror mirror on the wall.. certainly your poisonous streams offer no alternative to a smoky mirror bheiya of u.p.
ReplyDeleteKhali hovai terai ghar— khali- Bengal murdabad!!!!!
Now we know where to point the nukes- don’t dare come to Canuckisthan u stick out like a sore thumb and u will learn what chinky do to u - catapult off Milky Way gLaxy - i despise English - defective shytt of yehud -
ReplyDeleteStay incel pakka - never a happy moment for you not ever purchas plastic japan doll
To quote Tehran “ r they even human “ u ain’t
U derided Bhakti - Janak made mistake in releasing Bengal from hell- ur famine was well deserved - churchill correct and all africa is AfPakHind dharti
— u steal game of kabbadi ur inner yehud emerged
Interesting all the trolls here disparage Bengal to the point of wishing a genocide on them. As if Pakistans attempt wasnt enough. I suppose they are still butthurt from whooping they got in December 1971 where the AfPakHind "sher" set a world record in the number of surrenders in such a short time frame.
ReplyDeleteYsv
DeleteTrue Pakistanis feeling raged by Bengalis is understandable,what's amusing is a few India-born folks feeling deeply hurt for Pakistan . And Sikhs who are in favour of khalistan are suffering from civilizational delirium ,even as of today Sikhs of Pakistan get worse treatment than Hindus living in Pakistan .wonder how easily khalistani supporters overlook Sikh genocide and modern day discrimination of Pakistan against Sikhs. But this has been the agenda of any separatist movement , 'unified indep Bengal nation' flagbearers conveniently overlook the Hindu genocide in modern bdesh(though again bdesh is far better than Pak ,but in general an Islamic nation is not reliable when it comes to protection of minority culture, Indonesia may be the only exception ) .
Assamese have taken independent Assam agenda to another level ,they drove out+harassed Bengali Hindus but warmed up to bdesh . Even on general social media ,u will find many independent Assam cheerleaders blowing trumpet for removing all bengali Hindus but strangely silent on bdesh Muslim Bengalis infiltrating Assam.
Even Indonesia is not really that awesome for minorities. Hindus there were forced to identify as monotheists before Indonesia recognized Hinduism. Atheists face jail time.
DeleteHowever they are much better than Malaysia where Islamic laws are even stricter (Kelantan province in Malaysia issues death penalty for apostasy). To say nothing of Brunei!
But I must admit, Salafists and Saudi Wahhabis are absolutely frustrated with Indonesia. Indonesians don't mind pork being widely sold in their country and a lot of them eat dog meat! Dog meat is apparently forbidden in Islam but Indonesians eat a lot of it.
DeleteAlso there is apparently a tribe which is matrilineal and women head their families and even prayers in mosques. No wonder some Islamists really hate them.
Prabhnoor Rangi: Was your real father a Bengali or a Lemurid Madrasi (or in your words Mudrace)? I heard your Arya Saka mother was dancing in a brothel in Dubai when she met and got pregnant with one of her clients. Did the bitter truth about the identity of your real father fill you with bitter envy?
ReplyDeleteEnviro-Metal
DeleteStrange my comment here didnt appear or publish,I guess i pressed the publish option twice,this is an old bug with blogger.
Bhai kindly dont pull his parents ,I do understand that he has given u more than enough reasons to do so :) But we really dont know whether his parents are at all aware of his online habits with an anon troll account ,so no use offending them. I have seen crap sons born to good parents,myself also technically included in that list :D
Peoples and cultures like those of PRabh are generally and largely losers in real lives,they cant bank on ingenuity of ideas or civilizational zeals,thus they keep harping along cheaper lanes of identity pride,sometimes totally baseless like that in pakistan which looks up to arab identity.
I understand that my mother culture hasnt exactly fared well since independence,but identity pride was never in our matrix. Look at assam in contrast,their sense of misplaced identity has made them hate hindu bengalis yet subtly warm up to bdeshi muslim bengalis who adopt assamese language freely just to infiltrate and settle in the state. In contrast,the hindu bengalis refusing to adopt assamese have been hounded , genuine bengali hindu citizens (and even genunie bengali indian muslims for that matter,like an ex army officer as well being left out of NRC even though he has served in indian army for almost 3 decades) were languishing in assam jails on frivolous NRC tabulation(i dont know whether any improvement has come in the situation),and many of the families have lost all money trying to prove in court or tribunal that they are 'indians' and not bdeshi in assam.
Yet media reports and social media observations have shown that strangely the actual bdeshis seem to have bypassed all checks,one tactic being that they simply annoucned themselves as assamese https://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2019/01/bengali-hindus-in-assam-the-nowhere-people/
This is what happens when u bank too much on cultural ,racial or ethnic identity based on narrower outlook towards civilizational or collective life. as some neutral hindu rights activists are pointing out,Assam will lose out its hindu majority culture if it drives away the remaining bengali hindus settled mostly in lower assam(maybe not by direct riots anymore like 1980s but by simply creating unfavourable policies aimed at discrimination against bengalis). the native assamese are somewhat oblivious of their danger and the flaw in their general thinking of assamese pride.
Anyway what is true for assamese pride is equally true for khalistani or sikh pride,just that the medium of expression and contexts are different,nothing else. God forbid Bengal never falls into such low regional sentimentalism,as bengal is literally a convergence of all cultures,odiyas,biharis,marwaris,south indians and even assamese live freely here,are not threatened or alienated in any way whatsoever. our own town is a mini india in itself,with sikhs having their own gurudwara,biharis,one tamil colony(ex tamils and mostly bengali by habit :D ) ,few malayalee xtians,a jain community,and even one or two parsee families used to live,i dont know whether they stay anymore :)
One commonality I noticed amongst many regionalists is their cultivation of Islamists in order to spite the larger community around them. IN AP we saw Telangana Hindus cast in their lot with Owaisi and company in order form an alliance against the Andhra faction. And you have KCR speaking of Ganga Jamuna Tehzeeb.
DeleteSimilarly Kannadiga chauvinists have adopted Tipu Sultan as their mascot possibly to spite the neighboring Marathis and Keralites.
Periyar in his anti Brahminical and regional zeal praised Islam and Christianity as superior to Hinduism
The anti Hindu stance of Khalistan and Kashmir separatists needs no further elaboration.
Its as if Indian nationalism is a stand in for Hinduism for better or worse.
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ReplyDeleteThis was what I was talking about the other day:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZjINMn3Bvo
China's PLA will not be wasting money and manpower in fighting border wars or other forms of war where India has an advantage. China will fight a decisive war of occupation with minimum loss and maximum gain where India has absolutely no chance.
The PLA has moved from manpower to automation to autonomous warfare. The quantum of threat from the PLA is five-fold:
1. PLA border management.
2. Forces-in-being.
3. Forces that can be brought to support the PLA's Western Command (which was created in 2017) in quick time.
4. Interoperability between PLA and the Pakistan Army.
5. Kashmiri separatists backed by Pakistan.
I feel the Indian govt has been going in the wrong direction:
1. Alienating Iran and Russia.
2. Tightly embracing the US via BECA and COMCASA.
3. Not earning peace in the neighborhood.
4. Signing QUAD (USA + Australia + Japan + India).
5. Destroying the Indian economy and society.
6. Scrapping Article 370.
7. Leaving RCEP.
8. Abandoning the Spirit of Wuhan and Chennai.
9. Setting the Kashmir valley on fire (thank you Ajit Doval) which gave Pakistan considerable advantage. The surgical strikes in 2016 and 2019 exposed India's blunted war capabilities vis-à-vis Pakistan and gave China the confidence to move in and eliminate the LAC this year.
China will be able to match the United States in terms of military power by 2030 with machines in the lead. A truncated version of the same will be ready by 2023 which will be more than enough to literally destroy and occupy India.
Read this:
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/the-times/chinas-microwave-pulse-weapon-defeats-indian-troops-at-himalayan-border/news-story/4683263ed8d35b735f37cd57715877a5
In case you cannot read behind the paywall:
https://twitter.com/sonaliranade/status/1328657854924984320
By 2025, China will use "significant military force against a country on its periphery".
https://twitter.com/osmastro/status/1328609883181043712
And which country is that? China's prime focus will be on dismantling the US-led QUAD.
1. Australia is too far away.
2. Japan's self-defense forces have demonstrated admirable capability to defend Japan. Plus separation by sea makes it a logistical nightmare for China.
3. The United States is still stronger than China. China falls short in terms of hardware and software. And their kill chains are quite vulnerable.
So the only country China will attack is...India.
While everyone was focusing on Ladakh, China silently made moves in Himachal Pradesh, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/spotlight-on-ladakh-china-secretly-made-moves-in-central-sikkim-and-eastern-sectors/story-GuwPWJKoYjQ3hGlNx7rZUP.html
If this is not a preparation for a full-scale war of occupation, what is it?
China is preparing for "Wars with machines in the lead". AI and ML/DL are the center and front of PLA's warfare today. It will win them wars with lesser cost and more gain.
China has recently joined the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), which is basically ASEAN + Far East + Pacific Rim integration, putting it ahead of the US and the EU and making it a powerful Pacific power. India is now lost in the middle of nowhere.
It is time for New Delhi to focus on the very real threat to India which is not terrorism but PLA. And above all, be realistic.
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DeleteVladimir Putin silently mediated between India and China and that led to the September 10 Moscow Declaration. Putin is now suffering from Parkinson's Disease. If he resigns, the new Russian President will firmly ally with China against India.
DeleteWhat India can do to blunt the Chinese threat (or at least try):
1. Abide by the spirit of Wuhan and Chennai.
2. Respect the September 10 Moscow Agreement.
3. Make peace with Pakistan and the rest of South Asia.
4. Solve the Kashmir crisis immediately. Restoring Articles 370/35A is a good place to start.
5. Focus on electronic/electromagnetic warfare, anti-submarine warfare and start building autonomous war systems. Focus more on UAVs/UCAVs. The biggest takeaway from Azerbaijan's decisive victory over Armenia carries important lessons for India.
6. Focus on economic growth.
For starters.
And it needs to be done...NOW!
Hows your diet and excercize regimen going? Get your health sorted NOW!
Delete"Make peace with Pakistan and the rest of South Asia"--
ReplyDeleteYou make it look easy but how? Haven't we tried all these years?
"Solve the Kashmir crisis immediately. Restoring Articles 370/35A is a good place to start"-- Kashmir problem is here to stay. Removing or restoring articles 370 is not going to make any difference.
BJP handles these issues in those most ham fisted manner . CAA and 370 were announced at the worst possible time and executed with terrible PR and tactics. This is what happens when RSS graduates ,who pride themselves on having no original thoughts ,run the country.
DeleteI mentioned what is best done with Kashmir- make it a satellite state subject to India.
Speaking of 370 , non Himachal residents can purchase property there either. It seems most Indians love snow clad mountains , scenic views and the lifestyle. So I suppose this is required so as to protect local residents so that property valuation does not go through the roof as in London where Russian billionaires edged out Emirati and Qatari millionaires and working class native English have no hope of residing within the city limits. In Geneva, a lot of working classes including cops live inside the French border and make a daily international commute to Geneva.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of 370 , non Himachal residents cant purchase property there either."
ReplyDelete"Can't"
A qualifier- a non resident can purchase a villa or apartment (already constructed) but not agricultural land and would not own the land in his immediate environs.
Anyway these Kashmiris and HP are able to buy land in other states which seems lopsided. There must be a tit for tat provision.
There are lot of provisions like this for north east too. We need some inner line permit to visit some of them.
DeleteNone of the states in India where there is separatist movements going on like Kashmir, North east can survive on their own. They neither have the resources nor the population to maintain economy to remain independent. They will end up being swallowed either by China or Pakistan. Over that their geography also is a problem.
DeleteAs for making Kashmir a subject state, the problem is they can switch their sides when things hit the roof and moreover there will be factions created within Kashmir some supporting India and others supporting Pakistan. And if by chance the other party comes to power our influence might wane down.
In my opinion in the era of democracy the concept of subject states does not work well as no population would like to be lorded by other. And they can be easily swayed to turn against. It made sense in monarchy as they made decisions based on strategic considerations. The irony is even Maharaja Hari Singh wanted to be independent without acceding to India or Pakistan until the Pakistanis invaded.
In my opinion there is no solution to Kashmir unless Kashmiris change their mind. Even if they join Pakistan they will have to take orders from Pakistani Punjabis. Even after all this if they become independent we do not know how long will their independence last.
This is what I posted last year in wake of 370 fiasco. As you can see, India would have considerable authority in Kashmiri matters . A somewhat hyped version of U.S influence on Japan today.
DeleteKashmiris should realize that their region lies in a high strategic zone. It is unlikely any neighboring superpower will simply leave them alone. The below is likely the best compromise they can get.
.......
Just as I was warming up to Article 370 for all Indian states, the PM comes and ditches it.
I personally dont care if Kashmir separates from India on the following conditions
1) Indian army will be in charge of its Pakistan and China borders. Kashmiris can manage Indian border
2) Kashmirs foreign policy will be managed by India.
3) Amarnath and other religious shrines will be in control of the Indian government.
4) Kashmir will pay for 1) from its tourism revenue
5) Indians will recieve visa on entry to Kashmir but Pakistanis will be banned.
6) Kashmiri Pandits and their descendents will be resettled in Kashmir and they will be compensated for lost property by taxing Kashmiri Muslims
7) No Muslim settlement permitted in Buddhist areas. Any lone Kashmiri Muslim without entry permit will be viewed as a hostile and can be shot dead by local forces.
8) Any highway from China or Central Asia for trade purpose will be built and managed by India. Kashmiris may make money on tolls. A portion of this will go to India.
I think these are reasonable from POV of Indians and if Kashmiris dont want it, well time to expel them.
If these conditions are met then even I have no issues with it
DeleteEven I would like to have 370 for all states but with little changes like other state people can work and buy a house(not agricultural land). A separate constitution will ensure the culture of the state will be preserved rather than getting subsumed into larger ones. All the states will have to contribute to the Indian army in personnel and resources.
DeleteI remember reading a book by the famed Indian psychiatrist Sudhir Kakkar on communal violence. There was a specific section dedicated to Hyderabad where he interviews some North Indian I think Punjabi or Rajput (going by his name) who expressed frustration that while Telugus dont take kindly to any Muslim instigation in riots and often respond in kind- they are not into BJP etc. He attributed this to festivals like Ugadi which he viewed as unnecesary and wasteful because they are not known or observed in the north.
DeleteYou scratch a Hindutvadi hard enough and you get a North centric supremacist.
We have seen this even with the Onam and Ayyappa incidents. In the former the deranged Ajit shah actually celebrated Vamana, while in the latter the support for the Ayyappa status quo(preventing women of childbearing age in the temple) is lukewarm at best.
Hindutva entails destruction of Hindu diversity and customs which these Hindutvadis pretend to appreciate but really frustrates them because like Dayananda Saraswati they have a binary and limited mindset of what constitutes Hinduism.
To this add Savarkars dictum of "one language, one religion, one nation" and the birth defects of Hindutva and metastasized beyond control.
Could you tell me the book. And can you write about god Indra, I remember you mentioning somewhere like that Indra was merged into other gods in the Hindu pantheon. I recently came across something called Indra's net. Trying to understand about it but I do not have much knowledge about religion. From what I understand from whatever I was able to find is Indra was the main god in Vedas but was later relegated into lower level.
Delete@Siva The book is Colors of Violence I think. I looked through Kakars bibiiography and the inline on google books and it seems most likely. It is based in Hyderabad re Hindu Muslim riots and notions of respect, honor and machismo amongst the rioters. I tried to get the relevant excerpt from google books but the random pages that were available dont corroborate the claims I made.
DeleteRegarding Indra- Not just Indira but Varuna, Agni, Surya , Vayu and other sense based dieties of the Vedic pantheon were relegated to secondary status as the Vedic phisolopshy from the sense based world to more abstract schools such as Samkhya which is where Shiva and Parvathi come in. Vedic gods are often building blocks of later gods . Take an Indra here, a Rudra there , a piece of Chandra ,swirl it with Naga sadhus smoking bhang and you have Shiva. Inspite of some of this Vedic pedigree, Shiva was not accepted into mainstream society as shown by him being humiliated by Daksha. His marriage to Parvati suggests he has been accepted by Vedic society of that age.
Indra like Zeus is a horny character always trying to seduce some earthy female(human or otherwise) and getting into hot water (unlike Zeus who always gets away scot free). He briefly appears in a somewhat villainous role in Mahabharata when Krishna claims the people are Brindavan should be more grateful to Govardhan for its bounty than Indra. Indra responded by releasing torrents and storms onto Brindavan.
Though I dont think this is alluded to later when he meets Arjuna, Indras son. That would have been an awkard conversation!
@ysv, Interesting details about Shiva. I had initially believed that Shiva was a non-aryan god, who was later accepted into the Vedic pantheon. This article by a US based Tambrahm guy also says that this view is incorrect. https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2015/11/04/rudras-portion-of-the-ritual-offering-the-ka%E1%B9%ADha-ara%E1%B9%87yaka-and-the-atharvasiras-a-brief-journey-through-early-saiva-thought/
DeleteI would be a little wary of manastaramgini . though his blog is interesting in places, I think he gets many things wrong especially as he relies on Lokmanya Tilak for analysis (Arctic home in Vedas) fame. As you can see from dashboard and much of his analysis, he views many myths as purely astronomical metaphors. Though constellations, stars, planets etc are mentioned by name and when they make an appearance with other dieties, it is the context of their effects on other dieties.
DeleteDaksha for instance has daughters such as Revathi who is a star. This simply means that he discovered this star and ascribed to it certain principles and found it suitable to refer to it in the feminine as Revathi is associated with physical appearance and jewellry.
SHe along with her 26 nakhatra sisters are married to Chandra
Probably is a metaphor for the merging of two different occult schools.
Those who are inclined to seek gods only out of Vedas and nowhere else tend to view Shiva solely as an evolution of Rudra. But as we see there are many different aspects to Shiva that cannot be explained away by evolution.
So as it stands Shiva is a hybrid diety.
Ysv&Anu
DeleteFirstly in the shiva evolution ,it is yet to be solved as to what role pashupati totem played here. To be honest ,I feel shiva is a hybrid of pashupati and vedic rudra ,maybe that is the outcome of shiva marrying Parvati and thereby two schools of idea merging in. Any shiva theorist and vedic centrist on lines of manastaramgini fail to accommodate the Indus valley ideas of proto tantra . Btw here I recall ,one sage named martand Maharaj of jwalamukhi shaktipeeth sadhna lineage probably used to come to Delhi or Amritsar back in pre independence era ,and he would be hosted by the Bengali community in those cities. Thus he used to have beautiful discourses on history , philosophy,literature etc with the educated Bengali devotees (sadly I don't think much of it has been recorded by anyone in writing ) . Martand Maharaj showed immense scholarship on different subjects even though he never attended any formal schooling as far I know. This sage had given a beautiful explanation of the pashupati totem and also told that the Indus valley script will remain undeciphered as this script follows a supralogic based on tantric deha tattva that's beyond the reach of non-sadhaks,in that sense it's a higher language than even Sanskrit . Anyway martand Maharaj used to consider pashupati as the Adi shiva. However the modern Hindu shiva that u see everywhere is clearly a puranic mix of different thought lines . The vedic rudra in some aspects match pashupati. Also the theories of tantra gain prominence only from atharva Veda onwards ,I guess the earlier vedic schools didn't like or couldn't decipher tantric ideas of Indus valley ,thus early vedic period somewhat avoided shiva and tantra concepts. And when they fully accepted shiva into post Vedic lineage ,they mixed it up to create a sophisticated deity from the simpler pashupati totem.
Also martand Maharaj was of the opinion that hinglaj satipeeth was the earliest of mother deities in indic civilization ,this is in stark contrast to the Himalayan or Tibetan origin theories of shiva Parvati concept. My own understanding is that the concept of pashupati had originated in abstract tantric theology of the east ,however when it travelled to the west along Indus valley regions ,the people there chose to systemstise tantra into a set of practices in line with their newfound civilizational zeal ,and thus they set up satipeeths and pashupati seals ,altars etc as means of institutionalised sadhna schools .
@ JAM Thanks for those interesting insights. Vague remnants of IVC beliefs existed in the late Vedic age and these were referred to as Vratyas. Vratyas was a catch all terms that applied to those outside proper society -whether fallen Kshatriyas, tribals, foreigners etc.
DeleteA mixed race of IA and IVC population moved to Magadha area and they were referred to as Vratyas. Their customs such as ancestor, Asura and snake worship were not to the liking of the society of the time. They also introduced the tradition of stupas which was adopted by Buddhists which many Vratyas later gravitated to.
Apparently it is due to these vratyas that Shiva gained popularity.Note that shiva is beloved by Asuras.
I think understanding of IVC script was likely lost by IA invasion. IVC saw a lot of population movements over the millenia. Similar to how Egyptians today dont understand the hieroglyphics. Whatever the case, the current approaches of linguists ,archaeologists and other in deciphering the script have not yielded any result.
@YSV
Delete"A mixed race of IA and IVC population moved to Magadha area and they were referred to as Vratyas."
Did the Maurya dynasty come from these Vratyas? I don't think anyone would have been pure Aryans since its likely only a trickle of Aryans ever entered India (contra the earlier invasionist scenario where a huge warring horde fell upon IVC and destroyed the culture )
"I think understanding of IVC script was likely lost by IA invasion."
There is skepticism as to whether the IVC seals were even a script. Its possible they were just pictograms like the traffic symbols we have today. This leads to the depressing possibility that we'll never decode it.
''There is skepticism as to whether the IVC seals were even a script. Its possible they were just pictograms like the traffic symbols we have today. This leads to the depressing possibility that we'll never decode it.'' --
DeleteIt is definitely a possibility but a rare and bit stretched out option to be fair,that IVC writings would be mere pictograms like our traffic signals. That takes us to the second possibility that the advanced literary body of sanskrit as in vedic civilization came out of no earlier base at all. Generally linguistic developments are always a continuity in a geographical area unless u are wholly overrun by invaders like mongol herds who remove all IVC people overnight . Even mongol invaders assimilated local cultures wherever they settled down despite their initial rampage, if i am not wrong. and the quality of the development as in Indus valley civilization cannot come without a strong linguistic bridge amongst the individuals of the area,this is my understanding of general human nature and unfurling of civilizations in the first place. THe ideas of sewage,drainage seen in Harappan urban enclaves cant come from a primitive linguistic thinking,because most likely such ideas need to be mapped and put down on seals or papyrus whatever,to begin . Its just like the fact that u cant build a complex machine without putting down the plan on a piece of paper in a proper language. Traffic or pictogram signs wont do. But the remote possibility always remains nevertheless,considering the aspect of Shruti and Smriti tradition in vedas,maybe IVC people indeed had such oral traditions to transmit ideas and thoughts,thus they never cared to build up adequate writing norms or scripts.
Delete@Premac
"Did the Maurya dynasty come from these Vratyas?"
Possibly. Earlier historians flat out stated that Nandas and Mauryas were of Dravidian origin. As they came out from fringes of society and did not subscribe to Arya codes of conduct in war. Even if it is true, by the time of Ashoka, they were Aryanized atleast by blood.
"I don't think anyone would have been pure Aryans since its likely only a trickle of Aryans ever entered India (contra the earlier invasionist scenario where a huge warring horde fell upon IVC and destroyed the culture )"
I would disagree. There were likely various trickles over 1.5 millenia , some assimilated into Harrapan civilization, some wandering off into Punjab,UP and Kashmir. There are considerable number of people in northern India with the R1a gene. Tim Drake knows more about this. It cannot be due a Chengiz Khan type situation where a few men could have impregnated several women leaving traces many millenia later.
This would have been alluded too in the earlier scriptures. However it is true that the IA had a disproportionate impact on language, religion and culture of the subcontinent.
The reason for that is rather complex and not simply a matter of being the dominant group. Harappans were not likely sitting ducks for an invasion and Dravidians of the south were far more warlike and had steel and iron weapons developed before the IA.
The Puranas seem to suggest that sages from all over India participated in debates and rituals and led to composition and codifying of Vedas and Puranas. Sanskrit language and associated rituals which had considerable non IA input were considered optimal.
@JAM
DeleteWell there is just too little of IVC to make any sense of it. Even Champollion with the abundance of Egyptian hyrioglyphics needed the Rosetta stone to figure it out and even that was a challenge. He used Coptic which he came across in a church in paris as the key.
THere are none of these currently with IVC. Neither are there a large number of inscriptions, nor a rosetta stone, nor a spoken language Dravidian which is supposed to be the best candidate has not helped.
Perhaps the sands of Bahrain, Sumeria or Persia(all of which traded extensively with IVC) will yield it in time.
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ReplyDeleteface reading is arya india art: why is credit given to mongolid*china? fengshui is plagiarism of Vastu shastra an Aryan India innovation
ReplyDeleteFace reading physiognomy of body can reveal condition of internal body organs — eyes seldom lie.
What i find infuriating is why is credit given to china?
Architecture basics of mathematics are ind~iran innovations .
Never is credit given to Hindosthan- why? Something nefarious against vegetaryan ethic . Horrid simply horrid .
Prabh108
DeleteThe best thing about u was Ur relentless zeal at writing indecipherable content,but with this above comment u are somewhat deviating from Ur earlier standards ,u be sounding better poised in grammar and framing of sentences,u be falling from Ur erstwhile Arya-saka levels by mingling with us mlecchas of South and East ,u be losing Ur grandeur by learning basic English grammar ,u be becoming a failed warrior for pashtunization dreams 😀😀
Iranian contribution to mathematics prior to non Aryan Semitic Arab control is about zero. Iranians did of course have considerable architectural abilities. One does not need a great deal of abstract math (which was the domain of India) to construct fabulous monuments.
DeleteHeck the Greeks and Romans managed with the terrible Roman numerals.
As for Vastu and Feng Shui. Isnt it possible different cultures can reach similar conclusions about the earths magnetic field (mythologized as dragons, nagas etc)
It’s kamboj who enter wedlock with sister-in-law-
ReplyDelete- don’t project your dysgenic on jat
Read below stupid. Either you are a complete and utter ignoramus who knows nothing about topics you rave like lunatic about or you are liar. Either way you are just garbage.
ReplyDeletehttps://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.909.7649&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Exploring the Beneficiaries:
A Gendered Peep into
the Institution of Niyoga
in Early India*
Smita Sahgal
Department of History, Lady Shri Ram College, University of Delhi, Delhi, India
For instance, in the Brahmanical societies of North West
Province, Swat and Kashmir, widow remarriage amongst Brahmans was practiced
but within the family, more often than not with the younger brother of the deceased.
In Punjab and Haryana, the Jats and Brahmans of Punjab carry on with the practice
known as karewa which is almost like a second marriage and works out a relationship
between the sister-in-law and the younger brother, if the older brother expired.
What would India have been like if we were colonized by Spain instead of Britain? Anyone have any clue? I am just curious.
ReplyDeleteA power similar to Spain- naval, led by aristocratic gentry rather than merchants, keen on conquest and exploitation from day -Portugal, tried their hand at dishing out to India what they did to the natives of Angola,Mozambique and Brazil and Kerala and Marathas handed the Portuguese decisive defeats .Even SL Tamils with assistance of Nayakas managed to offer resistance until the more tolerant Dutch came along.
DeleteIts due to squabbles between Vijayanagar and Bahmanis and later Marathas ,hyder Ali and Nizam that they got to keep Goa.
The British probably having learnt from the Portuguese fiasco decided that a more subtle approach was required in dealing with India.