Animal sacrifices were INTRINSIC to Vedic Hinduism -Part 3
Vimucchyadhvamaghnyaa devayaanaa aganma- Yajurveda 12.73
The Aghnya cows and bulls bring you prosperity
The original translation:
the limit of this darkness: we have won the light.
No cows or bulls here. Heck the Agniveer/Vadakayil quote isn't even the correct tense!
edit:The confusion may due to the exclusive use of the word aghnya to mention cows. What is dishonest here is add the word "cow" in the translation when none is available. aghnya simply means indestructible or "which should not be destroyed" which in some contexts refers to the divine Cow but here refers certainly not to cows but likely to practitioners of the sacrifice.
“Bhishma said: That man who wishes to increase his own flesh by the meat of another living creature is such that there is none meaner and more cruel than he. In this world there is nothing that is dearer to a creature than his life. Hence, one should show mercy to the lives of others as he does to his own life. Forsooth, O son, flesh has its origin in the vital seed. There is great sin attached to its eating, as, indeed, there is merit in abstaining from it. ( Mahabharata 116.11-13) 4000 BC
“Bhishma said: That man who wishes to increase his own flesh by the meat of another living creature is such that there is none meaner and more cruel than he. In this world there is nothing that is dearer to a creature than his life. Hence, one should show mercy to the lives of others as he does to his own life. Forsooth, O son, flesh has its origin in the vital seed. There is great sin attached to its eating, as, indeed, there is merit in abstaining from it. ( Mahabharata 116.11-13) 4000 BC
Maa gaamanaagaamaditim vadhishta - Rigveda 8.101.15
Do not kill the cow. Cow is innocent and aditi – that ought not to be cut into pieces
Now Rigveda 8.101 ends at 5 but doing a quick control F for Aditi after what seems like 100s of hits and scanning through all I found this
Rg Veda 8.90.15
The Rudras' Mother, Daughter of the Vasus, centre of nectar, the Adityas' Sister-
To folk who understand will 1 proclaim it-injure not Aditi, the Cow, the sinless.
Once again. Very different from what was claimed. The verse doesn't say that the cow is Aditi but that Aditi is the Cow. Aditi , the mother of gods is sinless and is as a Cow but it does not imply all cows therefore are Aditi!
It is as if to say that a mans daughter is the apple of his eye but it doesn't mean all apples become his daughters!
Note the capital letter for the Cow as if to emphasize a proper noun than a common one.
And to emphasize that further, the next line
16 Weak-minded men have as a cow adopted me who came hither from the Gods, a Goddess,
Who, skilled in eloquence, her voice uplifteth, who standeth near at hand with all devotions.Firstly note the insistence of using small letters for the cow here. And then chastising those as weak minded who think worshipping a common cow is as worshipping Aditi!
What more proof do you need of the difference between divine cow and a mortal cow?
Don't believe me? here- knock yourself out
The original and complete verse:
18 For the Dice-king a gambler; for the die Krita one who
contemplates his adversary's ill luck, for the Tretâ a
gamble-manager; for the Dvâpara a chief manager; for Askanda
one who will not leave the gambling-hall; for Mrityu one
who approaches cows; for Antaka a Cow-killer; for
Hunger one who goes begging to a man who is cutting
up a cow; for Misdeed a leader of the Charakas; for
Misery a robber;
contemplates his adversary's ill luck, for the Tretâ a
gamble-manager; for the Dvâpara a chief manager; for Askanda
one who will not leave the gambling-hall; for Mrityu one
who approaches cows; for Antaka a Cow-killer; for
Hunger one who goes begging to a man who is cutting
up a cow; for Misdeed a leader of the Charakas; for
Misery a robber;
If you read the entire Chapter 30 , it is salutation to Savitr and how different qualities and circumstances are attributed to different things. It is not clear when Cow-killer refers to divine or mortal cow but certainly it is a lot more nuanced that the translated given by AVs.
Dhenu sadanam rayeenaam- Atharvaveda 11.1.34
Cow is fountainhead of all bounties
The actual verse:
May we adore thee, Sacrifice that yieldeth an everlasting son,cow, home of treasures,
This could well be a mistranslation due to bad grammar. Clearly this verse wishes that the sacrifice yields a son, a cow and treasures or bounties. Certainly doesn't imply cow is the source of bounties!And even if it did , so what? Cant its meat also be considered a bounty?
Aa gaavo agnamannuta bhadramakrantseedantu
Bhooyobhooyo rayimidasya vardhayannabhinne
Na taa nashanti na dabhaati taskaro
aasaamamitro vyathiraa dadharshati
Na taa arvaa renukakaato ashnute
na samskritramupa yanti taa abhi
Gaavo bhago gaava indro me achhaan
Yooyam gaavo medayathaa
Maa vah stena eeshata maaghanshasah-- 28th Sukta of 6th Mandal, Rigveda 5000 BC-
Everyone should ensure that cows are free from miseries and kept healthy.
God blesses those who take care of cows.
Even the enemies should not use any weapon on cows
No one should slaughter the cow
Cow brings prosperity and strength
If cows keep healthy and happy, men and women shall also keep disease free and prosperous
May the cow eat green grass and pure water. May they not be killed and bring prosperity to us.
The original translation
I. THE Kine have come and brought good fortune: let them rest in the cow-pen and be happy near us.
Here let them stay prolific, many-coloured, and yield through many morns their milk for Indra.2 Indra aids him who offers sacrifice and gifts: he takes not what is his, and gives him more thereto.
Increasing ever more and ever more his wealth, he makes the pious dwell within unbroken bounds.
3 These are ne'er lost, no robber ever injures them: no evil-minded foe attempts to harass them.
The master of the Kine lives many a year with these, the Cows whereby he pours his gifts and serves
the Gods.
4 The charger with his dusty brow o'ertakes them not, and never to the shambles do they take their
way.These Cows, the cattle of the pious worshipper, roam over widespread pasture where no danger is.
5 To me the Cows seem Bhaga, they seem Indra, they seem a portion of the first-poured Soma.
These present Cows, they, O ye Indra. I long for Indra with my heart and spirit.
6 O Cows, ye fatten e'en the worn and wasted, and make the unlovely beautiful tolook on.
Prosper my house, ye with auspicious voices. Your power is glorified in our assemblies.
7 Crop goodly pasturage and be prolific drink pure sweet water at good drinking places.
Never be thief or sinful man your matter, and may the dart of Rudra still avoid you.
8 Now let this close admixture be close intermigled with these Cows,
Mixt with the Steer's prolific flow, and, Indra, with thy hero might.
What can kind of a mortal cow would yield milk only for Indra? How can no robber injure a mortal cow and how would a cow fatten the worn and wasted and make the ugly beautiful?
This is the Cow which exists in the realm of Indra and Rudra and is of tantric symbolism. Not a mortal cow.
The purchaser of flesh performs himsa (violence) by his wealth; he who eats flesh does so by enjoying its taste; the killer does himsa by actually tying and killing the animal. Thus, there are three forms of killing. He who brings flesh or sends for it, he who cuts of the limbs of an animal, and he who purchases, sells, or cooks flesh and eats it-all of these are to be considered meat-eaters.- Mahabharata, Anu. 115:40
I dont think I will be discussing Mahabharata quotes anymore for reasons mentioned before and the comments by Jam about how a good chunk of Mahabharata was actually composed in the medieval era.
ghrtam duhaanaam aditim janaayeti | . . . eshu lokeshwanam maa himsaareeti ||.
The one who provides ghee is aditi. She is not to be harmed.- Shatapatha Braahmana
Please cite the verse
Na mamsam Raghava bhunkte, na chaiva madhu sevate, Vanyam suvihitam nityam bhaktamsnati panchamam.
“ Sri Rama does not take meat or honey. He partakes everyday of wild fruits and boiled (wild) rice fully sanctioned (for an ascetic) in the evening.” Valmiki Ramayana, Sundarakanda, Skanda 36, Sloka 41 -4300 BC
Eh this does not mean Rama is by tradition a vegetarian but that his imposed ascetic lifestyle compelled him to be one temporarily.
"You must not use your God-given body for killing God's creatures, whether they are human, animal or whatever." (Yajur Veda, 12.32)
The original translation:
Agni, go forth resplendent, thou with thine auspicious flames
of fire.
Shining with mighty beams of light harm not my people
with thy form.
of fire.
Shining with mighty beams of light harm not my people
with thy form.
Completely different . It is imploring Agni to keep his powers of light and fire in check not to harm people. Please note the lack of references to animals or "whatever"(didn't know Rg Vedic authors had Sanskrit equivalents for American slang but then what do I know!)
[Manusmriti, Mahabharat references deleted]
“Having no ill feeling for any living being, in all manners possible and for all times, is called ahimsa, and it should be the desired goal of all seekers.”- Patanjali Yoga Sutras (2.30)
One need not have ill feeling towards a cow in order to eat it!
[Manusmriti, Mahabharat references deleted]
Do not injure the beings living on the earth, in the air and in the water. - Yajur Veda- 5000 BC
Chapter and verse please.
One is dearest to God who has no enemies among the living beings, who is nonviolent to all creatures.--- Bhagavad Gita 4000 BC
Wasn't this said just before Arjuna slaughtered his teachers, cousins, uncles and tens of thousands of warriors?
Anago hatya vai bheema kritye, Maa no gaamashvam purusham vadheeh
It is definitely a great sin to kill innocents. Do not kill our cows, horses and people. Atharvaveda 10.1.29
The actual verse:
The slaughter of an innocent, O Krityā, is an awful deed. Slay not cow, horse, or man of ours.
Just FYI. The book X chapter 1 is titled Charm against witchcraft!
So that verse is a protection against spells by a witch not to harm property of kinsfolk. Certainly not an exhortation for pacifism!
Non-injury, truthfulness, freedom from theft, lust, anger, and greed, and an effort to do what is agreeable and beneficial to all creatures - this is the common duty . Srimad-Bhagavatam
Medieval era text. Doesn't carry much authority compared to the Vedas or Upanishads
[Manusmriti, Mahabharat references deleted]
[Manusmriti, Mahabharat references deleted]
They who kill men or slay cows should be outlawed and ostracised (Rig I.16-114).
I.16 ends at verse 9.
Flesh-eating, drinking, gambling and adultery, all, destroy and mar the mental faculties of a man (Atharva VI.7-70-71)
[Manusmriti, Mahabharat references deleted]
Flesh-eating, drinking, gambling and adultery, all, destroy and mar the mental faculties of a man (Atharva VI.7-70-71)
There is no 70-71 for VI. Also 7 is the following
Protect both our species, two-legged and four-legged. Both food and water for their needs supply. May they with us increase in stature and strength. Save us from hurt all our days, O Powers! - Rig Veda 10.37.11. VE, 319
gaam maa himseeraditim viraajam ||
The Charm Brihaspati hath bound, the fatness-dropping citron-
wood, the potent Khadira, for strength,
This Charm hath Indra put on him for power and manly
puissance.
t yieldeth strength to strengthen him, again, again, from morn
to morn, having approached the deities.
wood, the potent Khadira, for strength,
This Charm hath Indra put on him for power and manly
puissance.
t yieldeth strength to strengthen him, again, again, from morn
to morn, having approached the deities.
Does not support vegetarian claims
Protect both our species, two-legged and four-legged. Both food and water for their needs supply. May they with us increase in stature and strength. Save us from hurt all our days, O Powers! - Rig Veda 10.37.11. VE, 319
The actual verse:
The hymn to Surya
Gods, to our living creatures of both kinds vouchsafe protection, both to bipeds and toquadrupeds,
That they may drink and eat invigorating food. So grant us health and strength and perfect
innocence.
How is imploring the Sun God Surya to protect men and livestock imply a lack of meat eating and be against war?
ashvam naa himseeh |
A horse is not to be harmed - Yajurveda. 13/42 -5000 BC
The actual verse:
The wind's impetuous rush, Varuna's navel! the horse that
springs to life amid the waters!
The rivers’ tawny child, based on the mountain, harm not,
O Agni, in the loftiest region.
springs to life amid the waters!
The rivers’ tawny child, based on the mountain, harm not,
O Agni, in the loftiest region.
Ok what kind of mortal horse is born in waters, that too from Varuna? And it inhabits a mountain? And we implore Agni not to harm it?
How can anyone say with a straight face, that this is a flesh and blood horse?
gaam maa himseeraditim viraajam ||
The cow is aditi. She is not to be harmed in any manner. -Yajurveda. 13/43
The actual verse:
Unwasting Drop, red, eager, pressing forward, Agni I worship
with repeated homage.
Forming thyself with joints in proper order, harm not the
Cow, Aditi widely ruling!
with repeated homage.
Forming thyself with joints in proper order, harm not the
Cow, Aditi widely ruling!
We have already established the Cow and Aditi. Once again this is addressed to Agni to not harm Aditi, mother of Gods. Again note capital C for the Cow!
When one’s food is pure ( devoid of meat ) , one’s being becomes pure – Chāndogya Upaniṣad 7.26.2
The verse cited
'There is this verse, "He who sees this, does not see death, nor illness, nor pain; he who sees this, sees everything, and obtains everything everywhere.
Either the chapter and verse are incorrect or the interpreter is downright stupid and dishonest. Im leaning towards the latter.
LISTEN, I AM NOT IN THE HABIT OF PROVIDING PROOFS- when CHOOTS ask me for proofs my usual answer to them is "FU#K OFF!"
Did you even check for yourself the veracity of the quotes or were you simply content to copy and paste them from the site of yet another ignoramus(Agni Veer) and yet again without giving due credit to the original author! How shameless can your plagiarism get?
So anyone who asks you for proof of your fantastic claims are choots apparently. You have all the sanity and megalomania of a cult leader but alas without the charisma. Reading your blog is like being cornered by a very dull ,self important talkative jackass at a party who only talks of himself and thinks he is endlessly interesting.
I MAKE AN EXCEPTION IN THIS POST TO CONVINCE PM NARENDRA MODI
Hahahahahahahahahahaha! Thank you captain. I haven't laughed like this in a while. I do believe that you are actually deranged enough to think PM Modi has an obligation to religiously follow your site. And if he doesn't, dammit you will MAKE him follow it, hence the instructions to all your minions to post your regurgitated nonsense in the website and twitter feed in his and all the BJP party members.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha! Thank you captain. I haven't laughed like this in a while. I do believe that you are actually deranged enough to think PM Modi has an obligation to religiously follow your site. And if he doesn't, dammit you will MAKE him follow it, hence the instructions to all your minions to post your regurgitated nonsense in the website and twitter feed in his and all the BJP party members.
In Vedic sacred Sanskrit texts the cow is a symbol of the divine bounty of the earth and ALL the ancient scriptures prohibit the slaughter of cows. The slaughter of any animal goes against the principle of ahimsa.
For the last time- Yes the cow is a symbol of the sacred. And guess what- so is the snake! So is the tiger, lion,monkey amongst a host of other animals which are associated with various gods and goddesses. Do you know which other species is associated with the divine- man! Are we supposed to stop killing criminals and murderers as well?
The white invader imported Gandhi from South Africa to secure Ahimsa for themselves , to save their own deceitful white asses .
Gandhi was not an "import" from South Africa as he was neither Zulu nor Afrikaans/Boer but a person born in India to Indian parents. He inserted himself into the Indian freedom struggle at the right place and at the right time. - when the British pretty much squashed the remnants of the revolutionary insurgent movement and the nationalists were debating what to do next.
Ahimsa is not causing pain to any living being at any time through the actions of one's mind, speech or body.- Sandilya Upanishad 5000 BC
Chapter and verse. As you can see I have ZERO confidence in the veracity of the interpretation of the Vedic verses you provide.
The Maharishis saw life as the very stuff of the Divine, an emanation of the Source and part of a cosmic continuum. They held that each life form, even water and trees, possesses consciousness and energy.
If trees and water also possessed consciousness , wouldn't be they criminals by your definition if they ate fruits, herbs and drank water?
Nonviolence, ahimsa, the primary basis of vegetarianism, has long been central to the religious traditions of India- especially Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Religion in India has consistently upheld the sanctity of life, whether human, animal or, in the case of the Jains, elemental.
All rubbish! There are plenty of wars recorded in Hindu history ,many of these waged by prominent Hindu personalities later deified such as Rama and Krishna. They showed little hesitance in killing either animal or human when the need arose.
There is no greater sinner than that non-vegetarian man who seeks to increase the bulk of his own flesh by the flesh of other beings
The word GAU also means the Earth and the yajna dedicated to keep the Earth the environment clean is called Gomedha Yajna.
Shut up! Just shut up!
YSV the yellow highlighting is actually making the particular highlighted lines almost unreadable on my screen :) I think Anu was right,overall a lighter background with darker shade of letters is better for reading.
ReplyDelete"LISTEN, I AM NOT IN THE HABIT OF PROVIDING PROOFS - when CHOOTS ask me for proofs my usual answer is to them is "FU#K OFF!" - " - YSV this is the real USP of Capt with which he has built up his fanbase.Why are you hell-bent on demolishing it after all ? I am now convinced that you are a Zionist :)
"I MAKE AN EXCEPTION IN THIS POST TO CONVINCE PM NARENDRA MODI . "- Does he mean exception in his general nature of not givng proofs?Then I am afraid YSV you will laugh more at whatever proof he would try to give.The articles are less insane without any proof at all,because the proofs are more imaginary than the claims themselves :) ! Forget even Modi,Capt even claims that Putin has learnt the secrets of Holodomor from Capt's blogs :) I didnot know there was such a deficit of conspiracy blogs in the world,that Putin has to follow Capt.Now on a serious note I think Capt makes these comical claims as a source of fun,but his followers started praising him for even these statements and this constant flow of praises forced him to mould his mindset :)
"There is no greater sinner than that non-vegetarian man who seeks to increase the bulk of his own flesh by the flesh of other beings" - Vaishnavism + Buddhism
philosophy .All this proves is that Capt is utterly confused.This is the thing that happens when you try to mindlessly copy-paste other's works .
"The white invader imported Gandhi from South Africa to secure Ahimsa for themselves , to save their own deceitful white asses ." - In the above line I believe the central point in the claim i.e that Gandhi unknowingly danced to the tunes of the British.But as you have pointed out in our previous discussions,that was probably a political blunder on the part of Gandhi and I accept your logic here.YSV you should also dismantle Capt's history posts in the future.Religious philosophy is something which can be interpreted in a number of ways,but twisting history is akin to telling lies.
Finally I would like to make a point for all the die-hard Capt followers who will read my comment in future,and as always,I am open to criticism of my views.Many of these followers tend to believe that Capt's popularity is due to some divine effect :) Some of them even express this through their eulogistic comments.What has made Capt's blogs popular is his constant spamming of a vast number of popular websites and blogs on the net.I believe it is not a manifestation of the Kalki effect but rather the outcome of spamming effect :) Anyway I sincerely request to Capt and his fans not to take any of my criticism or sarcasm personally,as I have no personal grudge against Capt or his followers,apart from a mild disgust at how he distorts history to suit his theories.These comments are just for the sake of constructive criticism and helping out a few pea-brained folks who get confused by reading Capt's blogs :)
YSV if you are interested I would like to read an article of yours on freemasonry with your own views for or against it.The internet is full of useless crap on freemasonry :) This is particularly because I like the unbiased logic in your opinions
DeleteBut the capt. says that his horoscope is Jivanmukta (whatever that means!) and that this is his last birth and he will attain Moksha after this. What a joke! If someone who is so egoistic, has a heart full of hatred, lies through his teeth, distorts history, scriptures and epics to suit his own ideology can attain Moksha or Nirvana, then there is no doubt that even Osama bin Laden must be enjoying the fruits of his labour in Jannat.
DeleteAnu I seriously believe that it was written casually by Capt.If not,then I fear Capt has a hidden agenda of becoming a Guru/messiah someday :) As you have pointed out,moksha is not an easy thing to get.Even souls who are at the level of the Ajna chakra in the ocean of light(like Jesus/Chaitanya Mahaprabhu),have not yet attained Moksha/Nirvana,although souls at this level have no karmic bondage to return to earth.The only bondage that brings them back to earth is their own desire to help and guide humanity so that all mortals might reach their level.Even to reach the level of Ajna chakra you will have to be jivanmukta in your mortal life.The final moksha will only come when the soul merges with the infinite in Sahashrar.In this transition between the 6th plane of Ajna chakra(absolute bliss of dual existence with God) and 7th final plane of Sahashrar(singularity),comes the moksha-bheeti(fear of liberation).This fear particularly grips the souls travelling the Bhakti Marg,who do not want to lose duality with their beloved God.Such souls are called Premik-Sadhaks in Tantric jargon.But other than this fear of losing duality,there is nothing else that stops them,they can accept singularity anytime they like.An example of a person who attained the level of moksha is Maharshi Ramana,as far as I understand.So capt has reached this level at last :)
DeleteJAM, Capt. actually believes that he's a God's gift to mankind and whatever he had written about attaining Moksha wasn't written in jest. BTW, do you believe in these horoscopes and astrology? As far as I am concerned, I find it very hard to believe. Whatever has been related to me about my horoscope by astrologers, not one of the prophecies have come true.
DeleteBoth and Jam are correct. You are correct in saying that the captain is mad enough to believe he is a combination of kalki and Buddha! But I am with Jam when he says that captain wasn't always like that. Indeed if you check his earlier posts, he was no where this mad. The praise of his followers has gone to his head
DeleteI believe Vedic astrology restricts itself to detecting a persons guna and varna at the time of birth. And while he/she is most likely to follow the path most likely dictated by said qualities, nothing is written in stone and the role of free will is acknowledged.
Heck with tantra you are able to change your guna!
Yes Anu I believe in astrology and horoscopes but in the way YSV puts it.You cannot accurately predict the future unless you are able to raise your consciousness to the level of chit(chidakasha) in Sacchidananda of Tantric path.This chidakasha appears like a clear mirror in the vast sky (chidakasha) your meditation probably when you raise your kundalini to the level of Ajna chakra after you cross the ocean of light/Jyoti-Samudra (Ananda aspect of Saccchidananda) and before you enter Sahashrar.This is the place where you can see everything that has happened in past and everything that will happen in future.You might have heard the legend that Tibetan monks used a mirror to know past and future.That was not a physical mirror actually,rather it is the mirror of Chidakasha which is unveiled to the monks through their raising of Kundalini to the level of Ajna chakra.Beyond this if you go further comes the Sat aspect of God(Sacchidananda / Sat-chit-ananda) in Sahashrar.Only yogis who can access the chidakasha or chit can tell your future,because your present Karma constantly reshapes your future and so it is just not possible for a horoscope to be accurate,I think.For example chanting God's name clears off Karmic baggage,so that also affects your future positively.But here Capt says that we have lost the advanced mathematical techniques like spherical trigonometry related to horoscopes,so we have lost much of the analytical power of horoscopes.I do not have any idea about this so I would give benefit of doubt to Capt.YSV will be able to tell more about this maths part in horoscopes and the substance in Capt's claims.But still I believe horoscopes cannot determine accurately every single event that will happen to you.For that you must take the help of an yogi who is willing to help :) Infact what YSV has said about the scope of Vedic horoscopes is perfectly true.Anu you had also asked a question regarding prediction of Jivanmukta in horoscope in your previous comment.I do not think that horoscopes can predict your moksha but they can certainly manifest the qualities needed to attain moksha.I also think our dear Capt is far far away from that,unless my senses betray me :) Again I refer this to YSV :-P ?
DeleteYSV I had missed out one point.In our discussions in the Ajit Vadakayil-Deranged lunatic post,you had mentioned that Bhakti is by itself incomplete path.Well technically it is an incomplete path because most bhakti yogis do not wish to cross the Ajna chakra(Ananda) to merge into the Sahashrar(Sat).But to Bhakti yogis duality is better than singularity.SO it depends on your perspective,if you are a Bhakti yogi then the Jyoti-Samudra of Ajna chakra is your final moksha.Probably I had mentioned this in our previous discussions in that post,I can't recall.No soul resides at the level of Chit or Chidakasha.Anu another thing I forgot to write is that the Chit or chidakasha is also known as Vibhuti of God.Even holy ash of yogis is called Vibhuti,probably because of the similarity in colour of ash with the appearance of Chidakasha mirror which you see in your meditation,but I am not sure of this.
DeleteThere is some formatting to do to be sure. But in the meantime I fixed the yellow.
ReplyDeleteI had to divide it into 3 parts because addressing the entire all at once would be intimidating and time consuming. The captains horrible formatting style(which I inadvertentlycopied and pasted along with the text) doesn't help.
I had to do some monumental editing and formatting and it still doesn't look good LOL
Whats important to me as to put the content out there ASAP as I realized though these misinterpretations were floated around since atleast 2008,they have received a shot in the arm thanks to the captains paranoid ramblings.
I had to go line by line and some times word by word to check the translation and context.
Nowhere in any original translation of the Sanskrit text are such judgemental declarations about cow protection and vegetarianism made.
That's what made me initially suspicious. As you can see virtually NONE of the translations provided by Agniveer/Vadakayil represent the originals intent.
I believe the captain is more and more senile by the way and is slowly but steadily losing grip of reality.
As for Gandhi, I believe Koenraad Elst had a good take on him sometime back -despite Gandhis efforts at achieving swaraj, he never got over his loyalty to the Raj(he volunteered for the British army in the Boer war) and recruited for them during WWI and WWII. Here the captain is on firmer ground when he discusses this. Of course he lost me with all the Rothschild brainwashing nonsense. Gandhis pacifism , diet,even his clothing(it was based more of Jesus on the cross than anything Indian peasants wear which is a dhoti) was based on some Western mumbo jumbo interpretation of Indian culture.
Nothing in Gandhis dietary recommendation is based on the Ayurveda. His interpretation of the Bhagvad Gita would alarm Chandragupta Maurya or Vikramaditya.
But it is very much in line with German vegetarian and pacifist movements which had some following in England and America(the founder of Kellogs cereal was one such crank who like Gandhi was obsessed with vegetarianism and enemas)
What Gandhi practiced was just a result of cultural miscommunication. No conspiracy needed there.
There is just so much ignorance in one blog of a captain that it would take me multiple posts to correct it(as you have seen here ;-)).
And also you have read my mind. I was thinking of doing a post on the much maligned Freemasons and also on President Eisenhower, a great general,a magnificient president and a decent man who deserves a good defense from the ignorant and bigoted allegations from paranoid idiots like the captain.
You should also have a 'Recent comments' widget on your blog. It will be helpful for the readers.
Deletehttp://tips-for-new-bloggers.blogspot.in/2007/09/recent-comments-feed-widget.html
Also I'd like to know from when the cow was revered as holy. Was it because Krishna was fond of cows?
DeleteRe comments. True, initially I didn't bother because there were not many comments but after the deluge of comments of the captain posts.
DeleteI will get on it
The cow as holy probably started as late Buddhist era and gained the hydrogen bomb level of sacredness in the bhakti era.
It has a lot to do with a lack of Vedic understanding and misinterpration of the Divine Cow as the mortal cow
Krishna as a cowherd maybe a reference to the divine cows. The same way Krishna didn't marry 16000 gopis but acquired 16000 shaktis or energies as penance
Re cow
What you said about the 16000 gopis is true.Another representation is that this represents 16000 petals of the lotus that unfolds when you raise your Kundalini to Sahashrar.YSV you might remember that in your Capt post I had shared the link to a book written by Prof Sacchidananda Sarkar(Nigurananda).Prof Sarkar/Nigurananda had raised his Kundalini to Sahashrar using the simple meditation technique that I had mentioned in that post.The book is his compilation of the real experiences in the raising of Kundalini,along with the meaning of different symbols and mantras in Tantric path and their inner meaning.I saw that the book is not available online at present but the uniqueness of this book is that the author had used concepts of modern physics also. Anyway Nigurananda described this 16000 petals in Sahashrar as a multicoloured mesh or net like structure.After this as your Kundalini finally merges in the Sahashrar,you lose your individual consciousness or go into a state of deep peaceful sleep.This will be the feeling of most people like us who would reach Sahashrar someday in this life or next :) Very few yogis can probably comprehend the true nature of the infinite consciousness.Actually things at this level of consciousness are very hard to judge with rational intellect.For a vast majority it would be like loss of consciousness.Atleast this what the author revealed or could write in words.In another website I was reading that for people who have tasted the ocean of bliss/Jyoti Samudra/Kingdom of heaven in Ajna chakra and the supreme consciousness in Sahashrar,it is just not possible to describe the exact state in words.This is why Buddha remained silent on the nature of God,even after attaining enlightenment.So probably the author couldnot give any word-form to the experience other than describing it as deep peaceful sleep.It is said that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu,through his secret yoga ,used to relish Krishna in the mood of Radha and vice-versa,at the level of Sahashrar.This is why I find Capt's observations and knowledge on spirituality very shallow when he says Radha is fake and propagated by Rothschilds :) Radha is the most perfect state that the human soul can attain in divine love beacuse only the supreme consciousness is considered masculine and every other human soul is feminine with respect to Him.
DeleteYes you have taken the correct step in dividing this article into 3 parts,otherwise it would have been hard to read.I have a suggestion for you,i.e,in future when you have spare time at hand you should venture into the field of serious analytical literature in printed form and not just restrict yourself to blogging :) I think it will bring you accolades. Regarding the formats point,continue your experimentation with different colours unless you reach a good one.Overall I think a multi-coloured approach with more weightage on lighter shades will look better.Your blog has some real good stuff,it should not have a mundane single colouring effect :) But the present colour pattern is much better than the one with which you started.
ReplyDeleteYSV after the freemasonry topic and according to your convenience/ interest you can take up the subject of freedom fighters and some eminent personalities of Kerala.I am very eager to know more about them in general .You should also think about writing more on topics of modern political history of India and the world,on which Capt particularly specialises in using his perception :)
ReplyDeleteI would rather concentrate on my state(Andhra or Telengana if you will!) freedom fighters as they are under represented.
DeleteThe Kerala freedom fighters recently gained strong publicity in the form on the movie Pazhassi Raja. Before him also was Veluthampi Dalavar who rebelled agains the British. Marthanda Varma while didn't fight the British did in fact terrify them when he defeated the Dutch navy in 1789. The first defeat of a European power by an Asian monarch in the modern era.
Of course both Keralites and Andhras are outshone by Bengalis particularly in the 1800s and thereafter in fighting the British. But keep in mind we were fighting Muslims and other Hindu powers as well!
Sorry I thought your home-state was Kerala :) Anyway go ahead with Andhra freedom fighters.My point was not specifically for Kerala but actually your own home-state.I do not agree to your observation that Bengalis outshone Keralites and Andhras.I think this has more to do with the difference of language pattern that crops up between the northern and southern parts of India,and also the lack of proper limelight on behalf of the govt to a large extent.Ofcourse along with this your point of fight with other powers is also valid.I believe all states have contributed equally to everything that represents modern India,ofcourse I am filtering out the non-productive 30 years Communist rule in our state :) Probably these parts of freedom struggle history have been systematically suppressed or undermined to uphold the secular agenda of the erstwhile Congress govt.YSV by the way which is your present state according to legal formalities,Andhra or Telengana?
DeleteYSV you can also write a post on the role of the Vijaynagar Kingdom in the protection of Hinduism in south India,even when Northern part was completely under the control of Muslim rulers.This thing just flashed my mind after I read the "When in antiquity ...." post of yours.
DeleteI am sorry but your blog is boring
DeleteHi little girl. How cute! It is so adorable to see primary school children try and appear adult. But now is not the time darling!
DeletePlease in the meantime, click on the website that suits your undeveloped brain
princess.disney.com
or anceeta.com
They both require reading comprehension of 7 year old at the same IQ points to boot. Now please run along dearie.
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ReplyDeleteAny person with some amount of common-sense and basic knowledge of history will surely understand that Capt is a liar and shameless Kerala propagandist.I was hurt at the way he tried to denigrate Agama tradition,Charvaka philosophy etc.Capt will not be able to understand the beauty of Hinduism in this birth atleast.And ofcourse if he gets Moksha after this birth he will not be able to return back to study Hinduism properly :P
DeleteGood to see you snapped out of it. The captain is tremendously ignorant of anything outside India. Of course I am not too impressed by his knowledge of India for that matter!
DeleteBath in Hebrew/Aramaic means simply girl or daughter of. So Bath Sheba probably means daughter of Sheba. So that's not really her first name but a title or nickname. Even today in the middle people are known by their fathers name or their childs name. for eg Mahmoud Abbas was called Abu Mazen (who was the head of the PLO )means father of Mazen
Ibn Abdullah means son of Abdullah etc
Also the crank captain refers to Palestine as "Palisthan".....this would be news to be scores of linguists, historians and archaeologists dealing with the Middle East. Silly people thought it was a Latin corruption of Falashtim(Philistines)!
I believe you brought up his hatred for Agama elsewhere. As JAM notes, both Charvakha and Agama are very in the realm of Vedic Hinduism.
DeleteThere is a false dichotomy promoted by ignorant people(amongst them the Wikipedia editors of Agama) who claim that it is "non Vedic". Complete rubbish. NOt only is Agama Vedic but it is the distilled essence of the Vedic religion as further elaborated in the Puranas. Shall we say Agamas are Upanishads in a more tangible form but also for the masses
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DeleteInivayel actually I myself was a regular reader of Capt blog at one point of time in ancient history :) Capt was always anti-jew in his disposition,but he was nowhere as ridiculous and hate-mongering as he has been lately.I decided to stop following Capt seriously after I read his views on Kalidasa.Check my comments here :
Deletehttp://empiresoflight.blogspot.in/2015/01/now-captains-bloggers-are-plagiaring.html?showComment=1423724754910#c9124391501291791436
http://empiresoflight.blogspot.in/2015/01/now-captains-bloggers-are-plagiaring.html?showComment=1423727230500#c2867174240453123988
Inivayel parents are there to guide us :) here you have done the right thing by listening to your mother.
Speaking of Tamil, I was reading Kanakasabhai Pillai's Tamil Eighteen Hundred Years Ago where he made interesting speculations.
DeleteHe claims that most Tamil tribes hail from the lower delta of Bengal(Tamralipti) and hence came to be known as Tamils. He ascribes to them a Central Asian origin.
He differentiates between Naga tribes such as Maravar and Tamils into which they merged. Nagas apparently were already of varying races even back then (first millennium BC) from fair skinned Afghan types to Australoid ,north eastern Mongloid to usual Indian looking type prevalent today. They were spread all across Indian from Takshashil to Bengal to Nepal and Kerala.
He differentiates Tamils from Keralas and South Kanara peoples claiming the latter of a more Uttaranchal and Nepal Naga culture.
While the Kanarese and Andhras are described as mixed Arya Naga Tamil who took up "Dravidian" languages.
All of this is interesting speculation but speculation nonetheless.From the earliest Tamil texts, we see Vedic gods such Surya,Indra and Agni being honored. This is something Dravidian ideologists try to hide.
Tamil civilization whatever its origins is since atleast 500 BC intertwined with Vedic religion and culture.
If mentally handicapped Dravidian racists want to go digging before 500 BC and come up with nonsense like Ravana was a native Dravidian king(he was actually Brahmin) and that Rama was an Aryan invader(dark skinned Rama was descended from Manu who was from the kingdom of Dravida) then that's their problem.
Im interested in Inivayel and JAMs opinion in this Tamil Bengal connection.
Particularly in contemporary times, we see that Tamils despite their anti North India agitation were receptive to Indian nationalism only from Bengalis. It was a king of Ramnad who sponosored Swami Vivekananda's trip to U.S and Tamils were disproportionately represented in Netaji's INA!
My own personal take on AIT and Tamil Dravidian issue is that it is irrelevant. While I personally don't believe in AIT, from a historical and religion standpoint 3000 years is a long time and a strong vibrant and organic culture took root in what was supposedly hostile soil of Deccan and Kaveri deltas.
DeleteRegarding origin of "dravidians" there is the unresolved question of the vastly different linguistic group. IT is possible that Sumerian/Akkadian settlers from the West coast populated southern India more than 3000 years ago and imposed language, clothing(notice the long skirts of Arabs/Babylonian and Southerners vs dhoti/pants of the north).
Temple construction could also have had an impetus from Mesopotamia.
IVC most likely a hybrid civilization of Vedic, Sumerian and Elamite the synthesis of which later became Tamil and Telugu.
While Southern Kanara and Kerala culture hails more from Nepal.
Again this is hypothesis based on circumstantial evidence.I would like to know your take.
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DeleteIniyavel I apologise for spelling your name wrongly.Very sorry bro :)
DeleteYSV the Genetic constitution of Sinhalese shows Bengali descent.However I am not sure about the Tamils of India.See I think the theory that Tamils were originally from Bengal might have been true.However this does not mean that Tamils have descended from Bongs as is often interpreted.Because Bengali culture is younger than Tamil culture as far as I know.What I mean is that the ancient Tamils had probably settled in the Bengal area.As far as I know modern Bengali linguistic and cultural tradition has its roots in and around the 9th century and beginnning of the last millenium.YSV you can correct me if I am wrong.Frankly I don't have as good knowledge as you in topics of ethnic and cultural history :)
YSV in your post Ajit Vadakayil WHat is he, I couldn't access the final comments of Iniyavel.Probably there is some technical error from your side.I have seen such issues with some blogs where the number of comments crossed 200 or 250 mark.
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Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Sinhalese
DeleteSee the above link.The genetic profile of Sinhalese do indicate Bengali origin.However I am not grouping the Indian Tamils and the Sinhalese under the same category.
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ReplyDeleteNo invasion ever happened, and AIT is a crude product of colonialism. However, the fact remains that Sanskrit, Latin, English, Russian etc are all deeply related to each other, and the only explanation is that some kind of pre-historic migration happened, into or out of India. While I prefer it was out of India, the mainstream scholars seem to be of the opinion that the original homeland of these languages was Ukraine (Kurgan hypothesis). This is not really a bad thing, after all humans came from Africa. Even Dravidian languages probably came from outside India.
ReplyDeleteYeah Prem Chand I agree with your observation that no invasions occurred.And it is said that the BharatVarsha of Treta Yuga and Dwapar Yuga actually meant the civilized parts of the whole world and not modern India alone.However it is very hard to re-construct prehistoric events.There are many graring loopholes also.For example,the "Laetoli Footprints" or the ancient map of artificial structures recorded on a stone slab discovered in the Ural mountains do pose a threatening challenge to the Darwinian theory of evolution .Atleast the timeline of Darwinian evolution events is most probably flawed and needs a reconsideration.
DeleteAn offtopic point but not totally irrelevant,to ponder might be the Homo Floresiensis issue.This issue actually indicates that there is more to understanding of ancient pre-historic ethnicities and human evolution than what we can apparently perceive.
Yep, the bipedal Australopithecus was thought to be our ancestor, but now they have discovered younger hominids that were quadripedal. The problem here is that DNA cannot be recovered from million year old skeletons, so we have to more or less guess our relationship with these hominids. They may not be our ancestors, but our cousins (ie we share the same ancestors). Reminds me of the Christian evangelists' question: "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys around?" LOL.
ReplyDelete@ Prem Chand
ReplyDeleteReminds me of the Christian evangelists' question: "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys around?" -This question posed by Christian evangelists is technically unsound.Humans and apes(or monkeys) constitute two distinct lineages of evolution from the common human-like ancestor which first appeared in Africa around 11 million years ago.This is the theory of evolution.Given suffifent time(like a million more years or something like that),the current apes we see might evolve into primitive humans.Even the human race is rapidly evolving.A recent scientific analysis has predicted that if the world does not get destroyed or human civilization continues to enhance at the present rate,then within 8 to 10 thousand years evolution will make humans more like the aliens,ie,with large heads and shorter limbs.Large heads accomodate large brain size,as the flow of information is increasing exponentially with advancement of civilization.Shorter limbs will be due to lack of use of physical strength beyond the bare minimum.
However I have my own reasons for not believing Darwin's evolution theory.It is not connected in any way to the question of christian evangelists.There are many loopholes in the Darwin theory.But as of now,scientists are not throwing away the basic structure of Darwinian evolution because it atleast explains the development on the flora and fauna from ancient times to modern age.The flaw comes out when it tries to put human evolution from apes under the same moulding.
Indeed, your explanation of human evolution is correct. But regarding the flaws of Darwinian theory, I am afraid we disagree. Could you give me some examples where Darwinian theory fails..
Delete@ PremChand
DeleteActually Darwinian Theory is not satisfactory when it comes to Human evolution.I do not think that the primitive Ape is the original ancestor of Humans.It is a real anomaly as to how evolution of ape to human incorporated higher brain functions like cognition,creativity,imagination etc which differentiate humans from all animals.And if the evolution of such capabilities is possible through the process of evolution within a mere 11 million years,then we should have seen more human-like intelligent species of creatures by now,particularly from those groups which have appeared much earlier than the earliest hominid ape.
In my pervious answer,I wrote the basic theory of Darwinian evolution in case of humans only to show the basic flaw in the question posed by Christian Evangelists.The first realistic atomic theory was formulated by Neils Bohr as far as I can remember.But since then scientists have evolved the theory to much more complicated level as is evident in the modern LHC project.Similarly I think it is time for the Darwin theory to update itself,ofcourse keeping the basic structure same,like the atomic theory of Bohr getting upgraded to modern subatomic levels.But the real problem here is that the process of evolution is extremely slow and cannot be tested in a lab environment.
As I mentioned earlier,scientists will not discard the theory of evolution as long as they do not get a better scientific theory to bring forth.This is how the scientific knowledge progresses,I think.
Yes, there are a lot of gaps in the theory and the current knowledge is incomplete. "I do not think that the primitive Ape is the original ancestor of Humans." So where did we come from?
DeleteOk I am putting what I believe.It might sound like a conspiracy theory but it has been formulated by a group of level-headed bioscientists and not any conspiracy theorists ;) I think that the human DNA might have evolved on earth due to some foreign bio-chemicals coming into the earth's biosphere through meteors or comets.This speculation is not based on any random imagination,rather it comes from the fact that NASA and other space research organisations have detected organic molecules on comets.
DeleteActually it is quite hard for me(and also a significant number of biologists) to believe that the higher brain functions like creativity etc.as I have mentioned in my earlier comment, have evolved from apes within a span of a mere 5 to 11 million years.
However this does not undermine Darwin's theory in any way.The evolution theory has explained the advancement of flora and fauna(except a few rare cases) successfully.So the basic structure of the evolution theory is not wrong.But it needs to be updated,and scientists are already working in that direction.The real problem is that evolution cannot be simulated in a lab.
I think you are talking about Panspermia theory. Well, as far as I know, ALL organisms may trace their origin to organic molecules on comets, not just humans :). Regarding brain functions like creativity, language, etc we have evidence that brain size of humans has been increasing for millions of years. More brain size means more synapses, which explains complex brain functions.
DeleteYeah I was talking about panspermia theory but in a different manner.The original panspermia theory infers that life on earth started due to extraterrestrial natural bodies bringing biomolecules inside earth's atmosphere.I was saying about the abrupt and fast evolution of human beings with high-level intelligence from the earliest hominid ape within 5-6 million years.Evolution was not so fast a process at any point in the history of earth.What I think is that some form of radioactive or other natural force has led to the mutation of the genes of prehominid apes.And that's where the two lines of evolution got separated,ie,one became human beings and the other has remained apes till now.If the cognitive abilities that humans show at present has evolved naturally from the early nonintelligent life forms,then it is surely an extraordinary marvel.Surely the earliest hominid ape was not planted by aliens on earth :) (I assume you do not believe in conspiracy theories) . So the earliest hominid ape surely evolved from the land creatures that predated it .The sudden leap from crawling of the previous land creatures to bipedalism is the first missing link.But the major caveat that still remains is the sudden birth of cognitive capabilities in earlist hominid species.Here you have mentioned the increase in brain size and synapses.However evolution lines that have existed for a much longer span than the hominid line hasn't evolved anything.Even consider the modern ape genus and also dolphins.However intelligent they might be,they are still nowhere near to the development of complex intelligence of humans.This is why I believe that some form of external influence(no I don't mean aliens on spaceships :) not now atleast ) like abrupt genetic mutations due to radioactive or other natural forces have caused humans to appear.However intelligent aliens do exist on a large number of other planets in the universe.Even Humans might start experimenting the artificial introduction of life-forms in other planets like Mars,Venus etc within a few centuries :) But still as of now the alien hand in human evolution is too awkward to believe.
DeleteI will summarize from what I read in "The Greatest Show on Earth". Evolution is not a compulsory process. There is no need that hominids must evolve to be smart. Any adaptation happens in response to environment pressure. In addition, bigger brains come at a price. The bigger skull makes it difficult during child delivery and the brains demands a lot of energy in the form of food. That's why, since becoming smart is so difficult, only one species has achieved it. Neanderthals also had big skulls, but they couldn't manage it and went extinct.
DeleteRegarding radioactivity, I think it is more harmful than useful. The mutations from radioactive exposure are usually deletorious.
@ Prem Chand
DeleteWhile evolution might not be a compulsory process,I believe it also does not have much of a free will,in the sense that wrong evolution can lead to extinction(an example here is the extinction of sabre-tooth tigers ).And I am not sure about the compulsion of evolution,because I think evolution is necessitated by the change of biosphere.Correct me if I am wrong here.
"There is no need that hominids must evolve to be smart." -This is one of the points I had in my mind before writing this answer.However I was almost overlooking that you have already touched this :) The cognitive intelligence is absolutely required in evolution,as is evident from the near-human intelligence levels of dolphins and modern apes which are still happily surviving in this world.So there was no need for early hominids to develop "human" intelligence,when the other lineage of modern apes is still continuing without and problems :) Still the homo lineage developed complex brain functions.Here I think lies some unexplained missing links.I mentioned radioactivity wrongly to point out probable factors of what I think constituted so sudden and abrupt genetic evolution.Here you are right,ie,radioactivity mostly brings degenerative mutation.
Whatever you say it is hard for me(and quite a few scientists who are trying hard to find out the missing gaps in evolutionary history of humans) to believe that plain and simple natural evolution led all the way from the early ape to modern "spiritually" evolved human and that also within a span of 5 million years.By spirituality I mean existence of Ojas Shakti in us and such other things.I don't think this spiritual evolution can come with the increase of synapses and brain size .I believe it had some other X factor in the prehistoric past which still needs to be unearthed.
@ Prem Chand
DeleteJust a slight correction in my previous answer.I meant to say "The cognitive intelligence is not absolutely required in evolution,...." . I missed the word "not" in the sentence.
I suppose you subscribe to dualism - the idea that our spiritual and creative instincts stem from more than just our brain. Well, to each his own :). I have a more materialistic outlook. I think all our mental processes, dreams, spiritual experiences etc are all created by the brain.
DeleteRegarding why apes and dolphins are smart, but not having human level of intelligence, it may be because of the environmental pressures faced by our ancestors. Other apes like chimps and orangs lived in dense forests with plenty of food and safety, so less pressure on evolving. Human ancestors, however lived in the African savannah where the vegetation was sparse and faced constant threat from carnivores. Without trees, no longer any need for using four limbs for climbing, and walking is faster on two legs... Another common feature of apes, dolphins and humans is that we are social animals. We need to be smart to live in groups and communicate otherwise we'll just kill each other and go the way of dinosaurs.
I appreciate your well structured opinion.You are right,I believe in dualism but in a different sense which needs to be elaborated.I believe that the mental processes are created by our brain.But I was not talking about pure brain processes alone.I tried to indicate the presence of a deeper consciousness in Humans which the brain cannot even touch.Actually consciousness is too narrow a term to describe this, a far better one is the "Chaitanya" word of the Sanatan Dharma.Western dualism says that mind and body are separate entities and have come separately.My POV is that "Chaitanya" is the essence that is separate from both body and mind(as I believe normal mental processes come from brain's complex neural structure which you have already hinted).I believe that this "Chaitanya" cannot be produced by our brain,rather it is something external to our mind processes.Most humans(including me till now :) ) live their whole lives with the mind.But unlike that of animals where everything ends if you take out their undeveloped minds,humans can enter a higher state of consciousness when they are able to stop their minds.My view is that this higher essence cannot come through natural evolution as described till now.
DeleteLastly I don't think that sparse vegetation and threat of the open grasslands alone could have developed consciousness alone.In that case we would have more evolved grazing animals which have been roaming such areas for lakhs of years.
As far as I know Dinosaurs were extinct because of the meteor strike.This,I think, is the most accepted theory among scientists.Apart from this I think that all animals are inherently social to higher or lower extent.However fights among different communities with their own interests is a reality in most animals but it is also the same in case of humans :)
That's right, meteor strike is the most accepted theory for dinosaur extinction. The point I was trying to make was humans and other social animals evolved intelligence as a way of living in groups and communicate. For example, I or you alone can make a crude axe from stones and sticks, or I can make very sharp stones and you can make very good sticks and we can both manufacture good axes, by bartering with each other. Intelligence is essential for our survival, hence natural selection made us intelligent. Other animals evolve different aspects like fast running ability in grazing animals like deer and antelope, sharp eyes for eagles, powerful claws and teeth for tiger etc. When we stopped being hunter-gatherers and started farming, intelligence was no longer needed, so we turned it to other uses like science, technology and spirituality.
DeleteBut of course, scientists need to keep an open mind and consider other explanations. Thanks for your interesting explanation of Chaitanya. I was not aware of it before.
I have always struggled with the assumption that animals lack a higher consciousness, even if they lack intelligence. We dont know if they have consciousness, since we are only conscious of our own consciousness! :)
"But of course, scientists need to keep an open mind and consider other explanations" - Yeah to be sure scientists have an open mind only if you can point out the inconsistencies with some minimum logic.Now if I knock the doors of the NCBS saying that I think aliens fucked pre-hominid apes and thus the human line was generated,then I would be thrown away from their campus :D However even modern science is trying to find out the missing links and inconsistencies in the human appearance in their own ways.
DeletePrem Chand atleast in my views the fact that we might have been a product of artificial involvement,is not extremely absurd.As I wrote earlier,even human civilization is well on the way of introducing artificial life in other planets within three to four centuries.And genetic manipulation is not a day-dream for us at present.However I am just discussing the logical possibility and even I won't fight for the artificial hand theory unless there is a single evidence.
Another possibility that goes on in my mind is that probably nature herself is intelligent and conscious enough to introduce "conscious" beings in planets where it is suitable .Here I am partially using the Gaya Hypothesis of earth or in a larger scale-the universe.And probably this might be one of the reasons why Vedic Rishis of Sanatan Dharma laid stress on worship of different aspects of nature and earth.
Well, by other explanation I meant other than what I provided here, since that is pretty much the copy-paste of today's majority opinion among evolutionary biologists. I didn't mean to lend support to conspiracy theories :).
DeleteYeah I understood that.You meant only the logical alternatives.However the human life itself is an aberration according to me .That is why I was just musing over some not-so-logical possibilities as of now.However to be clear I myself won't believe the artificial origin unless there is concrete evidence for the same.I was just hinting at the possibility,by bringing our current scientific progress,where it won't be impossible even for our civilization to introduce life elsewhere in the future.
DeleteRight now I believe that nature in itself is an intelligent entity which can bring out intelligence in just the right planetsBTW Prem CHand have you pondered over the fact that the incredibly complex genetic code which we carry is in itself a certificate to the creativity of the universe,almost like an intelligent being ;)?
@Prem chand If animals had higher consciousness it would've manifested itself. I would say that whatever animals that we perceive to be more "humane" than the rest such as dogs, cats, dolphins etc is only because we project on them what we wish.
DeleteWhy we project on these particular species? Well firstly because they are mammals and we gravitate to them instinctively. In the Bible it says that man would have revulsion for creatures that craws on the ground such as spiders,insects,snakes, lizards etc. And that is true to this day.
Notice when we need people to stop talking and pay attention such as teacher with noisy students, all one says is shhhhhhhh which is similar to the sound a snake makes. Whether the snake is terrifying due to its Satanic connection or whether the Biblical authors chose the snake due to its primal terror it creates in humans is an open question.
Dogs for instance "love" us because this love is really dependence and submission. Dogs are accustomed to packs and follow the pack leader and humans simply are the new pack leader.
Yeah Prem Chand I forgot to touch the point of yours which YSV has answered just now.Animals are actually "unconscious" entities.This is quite apparent from the animal behaviour analysis.However dolphins might have near-human consciousness,as is evident from their patterns of response to human love and feelings.
DeleteBy consciousness I mean the understanding of the fact that it is the sun which unleashes daylight,the moon which lights up the night sky etc.As YSV stated,if animals really had a higher consciousness,they would have evolved into better "human-like beings" by now ;) The same process of evolution would have done that.It would not have deprived the animals of the right to take up bipedalism and build a civilization of their own :) According to the current theory of evolution,nature saw this possibility in only the pre-hominid ape lineage.
But one point I had raised in a previous comment in this thread got suppressed under the flow of discussion.The question is the arrival of bipedalism from the previous crawling land creatures.This is a serious missing link that all bioscientists agree upon at present.That is why palaentological research is still continuing to find out the origin of the first ape 11 million years ago.
@ysv some animals have exhibited altruistic behavior. I don't remember the exact details but there was once a gorilla that carefully picked up a child that fell into its enclosure in a zoo and gave it to the parents. I think some orangutans have been observed saving another animal from a crocodile. And dolphins make friends with humans without expecting anything in return like dogs.
Delete@JAM I had mentioned briefly about bipedalism before. Our ancestors used to be arboreal (ie tree bound) which required the use of all four limbs and a tail. When the "Sahara pump" stopped working, they moved to the grassy Savannah. With their long limbs, it was difficult to move around on all fours, hence they became bipedal(see how chimps move clumsily). This is the dominant theory among scientists.
"understanding of the fact that it is the sun which unleashes daylight,the moon which lights up the night sky" Whether knowing that daylight comes from the sun, or even further that it is the product of fusion reactions, is more a feat of intelligence and culture rather than the consciousness that supposedly sets humans apart...
"@ysv some animals have exhibited altruistic behavior." -
DeleteRare exceptions do not add up to any significant conclusion. Your point on dolphins is the same logical base on which I used the term "near-human" for dolphins.And by consciousness I do not mean lower level brain functions which some animals sporadically display.I mean the core essence that distinguishes a human from the animal kingdom.I feel it is not intelligence.My belief stems from the fact that the lineage of modern chimps hasn't still developed this consciousness that would make them "human".A few primate species have adopted to the Savanna or grassland zone but still they have not become humans even as we are discussing :) .If Darwin had been a guest in this blog ,he would have defended himself by saying that we need to wait for another 2 to 3 million years to allow the modern apes reach the primitive human form :) However I think that there is some other X factor which needs to be introduced in this process of evolution,else,apes would remain apes whereever you put them,be it Savannas,jungles or New York :P
"@JAM I had mentioned briefly about bipedalism before." -
yeah I had read your comment where you mentioned this.You have no flaw in your analysis.That is the most prevalent and accepted hypothesis.Anyway I have already presented my counter-views above.
"is more a feat of intelligence and culture..." -
I used the example of sun and moon to mention the basic difference between human intelligence with that of animals.However I also feel that the human intelligence which has allowed us to reach the stage of fusion reaction was actually coupled with the higher-end consciousness.Otherwise I think that humans would have remained as apes like the modern chimps.Surely being humans didn't give us any extra evolutionary advantage,as is evident from the primate species which inhabit even the grasslands to this day.But I originally based my argument of human evolution having an unknown factor on the presence of the "Ojas-Shakti" in us. I don't believe plain and simple natural evolution can bring this thing in us.And if this had been embedded in the genetic code from the very beginning by the universe(as I believe it was),then Kudos to mother nature and our ancient Rishis who understood this :)